Yellowing leaves, growing tree.

[Hartinez]

Ive got a vining Bougie that I've been training for a few years now. The leaves are quite large but the trunk and bark are wonderful. I quite like it. Over winter I lost all of last years growth and basically started from scratch. This year however all of my growth has been yellow with green veins. Ive read online that there may be a magnesium or iron deficiency. Any thoughts or suggestions on a solution? I read that epsom salt which is high in magnesium can be applied with fertilizer to help. I'm including a picture of the tree this time last year and this year.

 

[Hartinez]

I’m going with iron deficiency. I’ll try Ironite and see what happens. Thanks for all the great responses everyone! ???

 

[coh]

Did you see this thread? Is this Chlorosis

Looks similar to your situation. I can't offer much advice because I don't grow bougies, but it could be lots of things. Soil could be bad (not enough oxygen/roots not functioning well), soil/water pH could be off, could be iron or magnesium deficiency. You could try hitting it with some iron and some epsom salt and see how it responds. When was it last repotted, maybe worth evaluating the roots at the next opportunity.

 

[Hartinez]

Did you see this thread? Is this Chlorosis

Looks similar to your situation. I can't offer much advice because I don't grow bougies, but it could be lots of things. Soil could be bad (not enough oxygen/roots not functioning well), soil/water pH could be off, could be iron or magnesium deficiency. You could try hitting it with some iron and some epsom salt and see how it responds. When was it last repotted, maybe worth evaluating the roots at the next opportunity.

I added some epsom to 1 of the fertilizer tea bags I use 2 weeks ago with no change. It’s been 2 years since last repot. Since it’s midsummer and a good time for tropical repot, I went ahead and repotted it the other day. I’m going to do a ironite and epsom mix. Strangely, my Acer Ginnala which is freshly potted this year is doing the same thing. This after months of vigorous growth. I use a 75/25 pumice to composted bark mix. I’ll post a pic of the ginnala.

I will say that I switched to an all organic basic bonsai pellet fertilizer this year after using a 20 20 20 miracle gro fertilizer for years. Wondering if that has something to do with it. Thanks either way for responding.

 

[Aiki_Joker]

Get iron chelated with EDDHA it's more expensive but worth it. If it's chelated with any other acids it is not as stable at high pH and if your soil is on the high side it won't work. The iron just precipitates out and becomes unavailable to the plant. If it is chelated it remains in the water in ionic form that is available to the plant Good luck, results will be rapid (1 week max) if it is iron. You can dose this as the bracts come out to flower too to make the blooms more vivid I found (on pink blooms anyway, mine went red that year).

 

[coh]

I added some epsom to 1 of the fertilizer tea bags I use 2 weeks ago with no change. It’s been 2 years since last repot. Since it’s midsummer and a good time for tropical repot, I went ahead and repotted it the other day. I’m going to do a ironite and epsom mix. Strangely, my Acer Ginnala which is freshly potted this year is doing the same thing. This after months of vigorous growth. I use a 75/25 pumice to composted bark mix. I’ll post a pic of the ginnala.

I will say that I switched to an all organic basic bonsai pellet fertilizer this year after using a 20 20 20 miracle gro fertilizer for years. Wondering if that has something to do with it. Thanks either way for responding.

Did anything else change other than the fertilizer? Exposure (amount of sun), water source, anything? Which bonsai fertilizer are you using? Maybe try going back to the miracle gro for these couple of trees and see if that helps.

 

[Aiki_Joker]

Here is the profile for the different chelants they use. See the EDDHA surpasses any acid for stability across the whole range

 

[Aiki_Joker]

I added some epsom to 1 of the fertilizer tea bags I use 2 weeks ago with no change. It’s been 2 years since last repot. Since it’s midsummer and a good time for tropical repot, I went ahead and repotted it the other day. I’m going to do a ironite and epsom mix. Strangely, my Acer Ginnala which is freshly potted this year is doing the same thing. This after months of vigorous growth. I use a 75/25 pumice to composted bark mix. I’ll post a pic of the ginnala. View attachment 197511

I will say that I switched to an all organic basic bonsai pellet fertilizer this year after using a 20 20 20 miracle gro fertilizer for years. Wondering if that has something to do with it. Thanks either way for responding.

If you have a bit too much P in that organic stuff it can knock out the plants ability to absorb Fe. Organics are supposed to dose as the plant needs it, however, if the NPK balance is not correct they can still cause issues. Particularly if too stong. I've had similar effects with slow release ferts before :0/

 

[Hartinez]

If you have a bit too much P in that organic stuff it can knock out the plants ability to absorb Fe. Organics are supposed to dose as the plant needs it, however, if the NPK balance is not correct they can still cause issues. Particularly if too stong. I've had similar effects with slow release ferts before :0/

This is awesome. Thank you. I switched to slow release this year for the first time. I’m using Bio Gold. It’s balanced 15 15 15 but I could see how an organic could be out of balance.

 

[Hartinez]

Did anything else change other than the fertilizer? Exposure (amount of sun), water source, anything? Which bonsai fertilizer are you using? Maybe try going back to the miracle gro for these couple of trees and see if that helps.

Some of my trees are much happier with the organic Bio Gold but I’m def going to switch back to miracle gro for some. Thanks for getting the ball rolling on this. Exactly why I frequent this site.

 

[August44]

Some of my trees are much happier with the organic Bio Gold but I’m def going to switch back to miracle gro for some. Thanks for getting the ball rolling on this. Exactly why I frequent this site.

Which Miracle grow do you use, how often, and what dosage if you don't mind. Thanks, Peter

 

[Aiki_Joker]

This is awesome. Thank you. I switched to slow release this year for the first time. I’m using Bio Gold. It’s balanced 15 15 15 but I could see how an organic could be out of balance.

Should be OK if genuine then mmmm :0/

 

[Hartinez]

Which Miracle grow do you use, how often, and what dosage if you don't mind. Thanks, Peter

I always used the balanced 20 20 20 blue powdered box. Using the ratio on the box. 1 tbs per gallon. it says 7-14 days, but during peak growing season I used every 7. due to my mixed results lately, i'll be switching back with quite a few of my trees..

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Just my 2 cent: chelation means the metal is caught in a chelating molecule, not in water. The chelating agent can be suspended or dissolved in water, but the metal is unavailable unless there's ionic exchange of waterbound ions with the chelating agent.
It's why EDTA is used in detergents for instance; to stop calcium/magnesium buildup on your wine glasses by catching the ions almost like soap catches oils. Chelating agents though, work based on pH whereas soap doesn't care.

I have seen chlorosis like this being caused by too heavy use of antibiotics as well. That might not be the case here, but it's good to keep in mind for future reference.

 

[Aiki_Joker]

Good info wires, didn't know about the antiB stuff. Interesting stuff. Makes sense though. Maybe this is because bacteria can help break the chelants or iron compounds and free iron ions for the feeder roots. AntiBs could kill the good bacteria as well I guess. Nevertheless a chelated metal ion is a metal ion in solution (dissolved) and easier to deal with than a precipitated soild compound.

pH is highly variable and easily affected in high cation exchange soils like bonsai mixes (high clay). If the N component of the fert is high in ammonical salts rather than nitric salts for example, it will slowly increase pH over time. Ferts designed for acid loving plants have this idea (and other ammendments) built into their formulation. High cation exchange rates (bonsai mixes) can mean faster and larger swings in pH.

EDTA has a weaker bonding structure than EDDHA under soil application conditions (where pH can be affected drastically as above). This is why it is normally used to chelate iron for continuous applications where pH is controlled or buffered like on lawns. Not sure but ironite is for lawns right? EDDHA is predominantly used for high priority corrective applications where you don't have to control for soil pH. The application in discussion here fits it perfectly for EDDHA use.

See attached slide illustrating the results of various iron chelants at what is effectively considered pH neutral in the horticultural industry. The plant illustrated is an iron inefficient plant similar to bougainvillea, but not an actual bougie spp.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I have to respectfully disagree with you on large parts of your comment and reasoning aiki_joker.
I will see if I can find the time to pick it apart and provide my views on the parts I disagree with.

Complex = chelating agent + ion.
A complex can be dissolved, but the ion within it is trapped, it is part of the molecule, not dissolved as itself. Same as the ammonia in amino acids is not readily available, simple because it is stuck to the amino acid molecule. My chemistry teacher has used that example to make it very, very, clear that a chelated ion can not react, unless it's free, and out of the complex.

A complex can lose it's metal through exchange with another ion or ions. But this happens only if the conditions are met. Plants have the ability to excrete acids or bases in their rhizosphere based on the soil pH, thus are able to exchange with chelating agents, even without the help of changing acidity.

As for clay, it has bot a cationic and anionic exchange capability, making it the ideal buffer material for soils. Many buffers and even chemical industry ion exchangers are based on that ability of clay. There's a reason why, when measuring the pH of clay, or soils in general, both pH and pOH are measured; pH in pure water, pOH in KCl solution (the Cl- replaces the OH-; anionic exchange) and the pH is in the center of the two. Any garden manual will have a chapter on that. Don't trust me on this one, I know bonsai soils are very special ;-)

Whatever we disagree on, chelated iron is awesome stuff. I usually go for all trace elements in one go, because a deficiency on one side, usually corresponds with a def. On the other side as well. The cal-mag issue, or the mg-fe issue. Sometimes they're so hard to distinguish from each other, that it's less of a hassle to just dose "trace elements" all in one go. The stuff I use has edta, eddha and even some experimental humic/fulvic acids acting as chelators.

 

[Aiki_Joker]

Exactly. Chelant keeps the ion in solution as opposed to compounding it and high clay soils have high ion exchange capacity in general But most macronutrients are cations which is why cation exchange is a standard test

 

[my nellie]

... ... I usually go for all trace elements in one go, because a deficiency on one side, usually corresponds with a def. On the other side as well... ...The stuff I use has edta, eddha and even some experimental humic/fulvic acids acting as chelators.

So, do you mind telling us the stuff?
It might be available elsewhere except the Netherlands?
Thank you!

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

@my nellie the stuff is called POKON green power in the UK. Here in the netherlands its called pokon groenhersteller.
There must be other brands that offer similar products. I've googled around a little, but I couldn't find out about other brands or if pokon is selling internationally.
Here is their product webpage:
https://www.pokon.com/product/pokon-green-power/

 

[my nellie]

Thank you very much for your reply.