Yes, another soil question. From nursery container to bonsai soil

[Salvarez]

Good day,

I am just starting out my collection of plants to Bonsai. Not sure why but I am bit nervous to start the transfer in the spring to bonsai soil. Keep in mind that this is coming from me, a landscape architect that owns a landscape business LOL!

Are there things that I need to be thinking about in regards to "Growing" and "refining?"

Simply put, in my mind I think to leave in nursery stock soil for growing and bonsai soil for refining? Then it leads me to believe that I can repot using landscape soil into slightly smaller training pots for growing and bonsai soil for the ladder.

Was anyone else nervous to do the transfer to bonsai soil? What should I be thinking about? Also to note, I have been working with @BillsBayou for soil.

Thanks for feedback, here is pics of what I have now to start working on in the future.

Sebastian

 

[Pixar]

Good start , got a lot of material to work on

 

[Wulfskaar]

I can only offer a bit of my limited experience. The two nursery trees (shishigashira maple and italian stone pine) that I have moved into bonsai soil have seemed to do well. I have also moved a number of seedlings into bonsai soil that are doing well too.

Different trees have different requirements in different climates, so you'll have to do a bit of research to see what should go into bonsai soil and what should stay in nursery soil longer.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

I can get a bit nervous when transferring a prized tree to bonsai soil, and depending on the condition of the roots, type of tree, and type of soil in the pot, it can take some planning. However, I personally think it is one of the funnest aspects of bonsai. And when the tree rewards you with prodigious growth in the following year or two, it can be quite rewarding. Watch some YouTube videos on repotting to get you in the planning mood.
Oh, and you may need/get to water and fertilize the bonsai soil trees more often once the deed is done.

 

[dbonsaiw]

I am just starting out my collection of plants to Bonsai. Not sure why but I am bit nervous to start the transfer in the spring to bonsai soil. Keep in mind that this is coming from me, a landscape architect that owns a landscape business LOL!

Changing one's mindset from potting soil to what looks like kitty litter takes some getting used to. Although trees growing out in larger pots can handle more organics in the soil, I tend to stay away from potting soil altogether as it retains so much water. I wouldn't worry about the repot too much. Bonsai soil provides the tree with drainage, water retention and aeration so the trees will appreciate it. It will give you the opportunity to water more often in the growing season, which the trees will appreciate as well. You'll also be able to prune back the roots and get going on the nebari development, which is the anchor for the tree's appearance.

 

[Salvarez]

I can get a bit nervous when transferring a prized tree to bonsai soil, and depending on the condition of the roots, type of tree, and type of soil in the pot, it can take some planning. However, I personally think it is one of the funnest aspects of bonsai. And when the tree rewards you with prodigious growth in the following year or two, it can be quite rewarding. Watch some YouTube videos on repotting to get you in the planning mood.
Oh, and you may need/get to water and fertilize the bonsai soil trees more often once the deed is done.

Very good advice! Thank you!

 

[TN_Jim]

I came from botany -> to nursery -> more horticulture and can relate to bonsai being daunting…it’s such a different animal…breaks so many ingrained methods and practices.

I use big pots (5-17 gal) to grow trees out..collected or from nursery stock. If I move I can move them anytime. If one is diseased I can move it any time. If heavy work is done and a tree needs more protection or shade can move it..this is why I go nursery pots and not ground growing. To each their own..

I try to bare root everything as soon as possible or saw 2/3 of rootball asap species and time of year depending, and put into a better draining mix that provides more oxygen than nursery mix tho similar. For example, 100% sifted soil conditioner or with a mix of with sifted NAPA DE 8822. A nursery or landscaper can not afford the risk of a mix this loose -irrigation and hand watering, it makes no sense; although, in my back yard shit moves, sometimes almost too fast and that’s where you knock it back into check I suppose.

Next step is (more root work) shallowish boxes in cheap bonsai mix -more DE, less soil conditioner (everything always sifted), maybe some lava or pumice, all species and tree depending.

Then too large a bonsai pot..

This is what I do where I live and with what I know. Everyone is different. Professionals don’t do it this way exactly perhaps, though I don’t have their resources and am not them.

It’s all just watering, and how much you can handle. Most trees will thrive with an air filled root zone. If you have trees in nursery soil thriving and you can grow them out and work on them with a good response, and..don’t mind delaying the root work..it’s not broke

I’m no authority, that’s just my approach at present. Most anything I’ve found profound next step I’ve found it from the folks around here.

 

[BillsBayou]

Developing trees need to be given room to grow. That doesn't mean going from a 1-gallon nursery pot to a 10-gallon nursery pot. If the tree in the nursery pot is root-bound, or close to it, you likely want to move up to a slightly larger pot. If not root-bound, it can stay in the same pot. Either way, you'll be repotting into bonsai soil. Most species don't need, or really hate having all the old soil removed. Know your species as to how to repot.

Repotting a tree in nursery soil to bonsai soil can be tricky if you're leaving much of the old potting soil behind. The problem is water retention. If the tree likes the water retention of potting soil and you set it into a "dry" bonsai soil, the roots might never leave the old soil behind. So you want to have something that holds more water while not soaking the roots. "Dry" bonsai soil is a blend that does not hold too much water. High inorganic components that do not retain water would be a dry mix. Something like chicken grit, gravel, shale. Those soils hold water in a capillary sense between the soil particles.

Again, always know what your species of tree likes when it comes to repotting: Time of year; % of roots you can cut; % of roots you can disturb; soil requirements; even development stages will dictate what type of soil you use. If you're going for quick development, you'll want a soil with a high CEC rate so it hold fertilizer in the pot. If you have a more refined tree, you can use lower CEC soil components with organic fertilizers.

"...a landscape architect that owns a landscape business..." is the type of person who rips out old shrubs and trees. You'll be popular in Baton Rouge. Here in New Orleans, I work Uptown where landscapers will often have a pile of shrubs at the curb. If you put old shrubs with moderately decent structure into nursery pots, you can develop them for a couple years and make enough money to pay for half of the tools you want. (People know me in my club for having plenty of interesting tools. But I figure there are even better tools out there and I only have half of them.)

 

[Salvarez]

@BillsBayou unfortunately I work more in new construction. However, its been fun working with some of my wholesale nurseries to find stock. When I ask them to email me the ugliest tree with the biggest trunk they basically give them to me LOL! I am looking forward to your mix to get me started.

Question: do you ever blend the "first potting" out of the nursery stock with bonsai soil and mix in some of the potting soil? Then transition the plant year two to desired mix to match CEC rates and reach bonsai nirvana? LOL. I feel like if I can make it a full year in bonsai soil I should get a patch or something!!

 

[TN_Jim]

It’s species dependent. Would search threads on your individual speci. Deciduous is typically safer to bare root into bonsai soil at right time; although, would not treat all deciduous as so. Some folks always keep a traditional organic component in their mix(es).

 

[TN_Jim]

@BillsBayou unfortunately I work more in new construction. However, its been fun working with some of my wholesale nurseries to find stock. When I ask them to email me the ugliest tree with the biggest trunk they basically give them to me LOL! I am looking forward to your mix to get me started.

Question: do you ever blend the "first potting" out of the nursery stock with bonsai soil and mix in some of the potting soil? Then transition the plant year two to desired mix to match CEC rates and reach bonsai nirvana? LOL. I feel like if I can make it a full year in bonsai soil I should get a patch or something!!

This is the “industry” conundrum…but…I NEED ORGANIC!!!!

 

[Gabler]

I had to wean myself off of regular garden variety soil. I gradually used larger and larger proportions of bonsai soil in the pots, mixed with three-year-old garden compost (mostly banana peels and coffee grounds), and the trees did better and better.

 

[Pixar]

(mostly banana peels and coffee grounds),

Don't use coffee grounds it clogs the soil up

 

[sorce]

A tree will grow most healthily in anything when watering is correct and the soil microbiome isn't snuffed out with chemicals, including inorganic fertilizer.

The most important thing to consider when moving something into a small pot, where repotting will be more frequent (read, years instead of decades) is that the soil "falls away" from the roots without damage.

Sorce

 

[MrFancyPlants]

Don't use coffee grounds it clogs the soil up

Composted coffee grounds are fine. It clumps back up as worm castings and you can dry and sift it back to larger size.

 

[Gabler]

Don't use coffee grounds it clogs the soil up

I don’t. I used to use garden compost as substrate before gradually switching to bonsai substrate.

 

[bwaynef]

The most important thing to consider when moving something into a small pot, where repotting will be more frequent (read, years instead of decades) is that the soil "falls away" from the roots without damage.

I believe this is patently bad advice. I don't want to have to damage rootballs of my trees to get the soil away, but I do like to be able to control which portion has renewed soil and which one doesn't. Pulling a tree out of a pot and having it bareroot itself won't be good for its development long-term. Trees whose rootballs desoil themselves tend not to be growing very well. (This is goes hand-in-hand with too-frequent repotting.)

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Just watch your watering and you'll be fine with whatever you use.
I'm growing junipers in potting soil, pines in coco coir and it all goes well as long as I don't water organic soils as I would water bonsai soils.

 

[rockm]

I believe this is patently bad advice. I don't want to have to damage rootballs of my trees to get the soil away, but I do like to be able to control which portion has renewed soil and which one doesn't. Pulling a tree out of a pot and having it bareroot itself won't be good for its development long-term. Trees whose rootballs desoil themselves tend not to be growing very well. (This is goes hand-in-hand with too-frequent repotting.)

I'd agree. Healthy roots fill containers quickly. Unhealthy roots don't grow as much and leave loose soil. If your soil is falling away from the tree readily, leaving a bare root mass, the tree is either being repotted too frequently, or there is an issue with the tree's health. Trees that require repotting generally have slowed or very slow drainage, indicating the roots have completely colonized the container and need to be reduced.

BTW-reducing the roots (i.e. cutting the back) rejuvenates the root mass by forcing new feeder roots closer to the trunk of the tree. Old thick root tissue doesn't absorb anything.

As for the "snuffing" of growth via chemical, that's complete and utter nonsense. Plants use "chemicals" to grow, NPK. Depriving a plant of those nutrients (regardless of "chemical" or "organic") can result in less than ideal root masses where the soil falls away at repotting...

 

[Salvarez]

This is all good feed back. I think after reading all of the comments. My comfort will be in leaving the few Jap Maples that have and anything that I am going to "chop" in stock containers with potting soil and let them grow a year. All the other broadleaf and conifers I will take the leap into new bonsai soil. Maybe after that I can get my "patch" LOL!