I'd like to grow a JBP but they are pricey, so I bought two ~16" - 20" small trees from evergreenplantnursery. I am going to put them in the ground for a few years. What are some tips to get a nice fat trunk during this time?
Young JBP, ground grow
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0soyoung
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You didn't find your answers in the Pines forum? I'm pretty sure its all there already.
Also, you should look at the thread "A Few Pine Seeds Six Years Later' to see what kind of fun you might have without ground planting.
Also, you should look at the thread "A Few Pine Seeds Six Years Later' to see what kind of fun you might have without ground planting.
vario, the most important thing to consider (apart from all the technical things: soil, aspect, root prep, root cutting etc etc) is to allow full growth without touching it much but at the same time to always have a smaller weaker growth ready to replace what you cut off every 2 or 3 years. If you don't do that you will end up with a massive trunk but no taper or branches to work with. I can't state it strongly enough that this is the most important thing.
I checked out the thread osoyoung mentioned and it was very interesting. One question I have is if I remove the taproot on these 1.5 foot tall young trees, will I produce the radial root pattern described or will this kill the tree? I was thinking more of a conventional strategy, such as wiring the base for nebari and placing the tree on top of a tile in the ground for several years.
When should I wire? I read somewhere around 3 years old should be wired.
Do you mean I should trim the leader every 2-3 years but have a few smaller branches ready to assume leadership? This would restrict the height but fatten the trunk?
When should I wire? I read somewhere around 3 years old should be wired.
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Cutting the "tap root" won't kill the tree. In nature, the tap root serves as an anchor. In bonsai, we tie trees into pots using wire to act as an anchor.
So, we want radial roots, not tap roots.
There's lots of information on growing young JBP. The problem is, if you don't know how to manage Pines, which takes some experience hand on, you might not understand what the instructions are saying. And, a lot of what you do early on has a large effect on what you can do with the tree years later.
I'm not trying to discourage you, just make you aware that while it sounds simple to grow a JBP from a seedling, is not.
It's a catch-22: to do it right, you need experience doing it. Thing is, you won't know if you did it right until a decade has passed!
So, we want radial roots, not tap roots.
There's lots of information on growing young JBP. The problem is, if you don't know how to manage Pines, which takes some experience hand on, you might not understand what the instructions are saying. And, a lot of what you do early on has a large effect on what you can do with the tree years later.
I'm not trying to discourage you, just make you aware that while it sounds simple to grow a JBP from a seedling, is not.
It's a catch-22: to do it right, you need experience doing it. Thing is, you won't know if you did it right until a decade has passed!
namnhi
Masterpiece
I don't know who is the judge on doing it 'right' or wrong. I took a couple of my 8 year old black pine that I want to post up to see if I did it wrong. Am pretty sure, I did it wrong to your standard but I wonder what others think.
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Okay thanks. Only way to learn I think is to dive right in and start making some mistakes, then learn from the mistakes, not to repeat them, apply the learning to the next attempt.
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
Looks great. Has it been in the pond planter its whole life? Since I bought two pines, I might do one in a pond planter, one in the ground, just to experiment.
namnhi
Masterpiece
It has been in a cut off gallon size for I think about 4 years then pond basket for another 4. I have quite a few in the same batch that has been in the basket the entire time. I could have have a bigger trunk if I employ the sacrifice trunk technique but I didn't because I want smaller trees. I don't see the right or wrong in growing these. If you can keep them alive for a few years then you will have a pretty decent trees. The only thing I want to mention here is if you want curvy trunk then wire them while the still young. Good luck
Yes exactly what I'm saying but as for wiring, usually not necessary until you pot it. You can do a lot with judicious pruning. For example, if you look at namnhi's tree, you could let that grow until the trunk was say 4 times as thick and then cut it off at the first branch. That now becomes the trunk. Let that grow until it's as thick as you want then cut to one of the small side buds you see now which by that time will be branches. And so on and so forth. You will end up with nice angular material and plenty of branches to work with. If you prefer more rounded lines then wire but remember that wire slows growth.
In other words, you are replacing the leader by removing it completely not just trimming it. of course if you are very good at planning, you can just trim the leader with a view to removing it later and this will speed the growth even more.
If I remove the current leader entirely, will the new leader suddenly start growing much faster as the tree focuses its energy on it?
If I reduce but not completely remove the current leader, will that secondary branch start to grow faster than it was before but slower than if I completely removed the old leader?
If I reduce but not completely remove the current leader, will that secondary branch start to grow faster than it was before but slower than if I completely removed the old leader?
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
Trees don't focus anything - they respond to conditions.
The only energy in trees is carbohydrates produced by the foliage. There is a hormone, auxin, produced by branch tips which stimulates root growth, but tends to suppress buds (could-be apical meristems) below. It has a particularly strong effect in pines such that the highest apical meristem dominates and suppresses the activity of everything below it (hence the natural conical form).
Your sacrifice leader has been doing this. When you remove it, the next highest branch tip will take over that role. It is up to chance if all of your branches are about the same height, so raise the tip of the one you want to be the new leader. Then, as before, make sure it has plenty of foliage AND that it doesn't shade your lower branches.
Make sense?
Just raise the tip of the branch you want to be the new sacrifice to be the highest one.
Not just cutting the end of the branch off, but actually elevating another branch above it. Thanks very interesting.
Oso young has this right. The highest tip will usually grow the fastest.
This is why low sacrifice branches rarely have any effect as to thickening the lower trunk. They aren't the highest. Now, if you can make a low branch become the highest, by wiring or staking it up, then the tree will send most of the growth towards it, and it will start thickening the lower trunk. The problem then becomes that when it's time to remove the low sacrifice branch, you'll have a scar on the lower trunk.
A combination of a little wiring and the repeated grow and chop method MichaelS described works the best.
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
Since we're personifying trees, the highest branch tip tells the rest of the tree, 'hey, I've got this' so the rest of the tree lets it produce most of the growth ...
Still silly, but more like what is actually going on. Trees, don't send stuff. They don't use FED-X, UPS, snail-mail or email. They do, however, fart a bit of ethylene when you pinch them.
Leo in N E Illinois
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Not only ethylene, but a whole assortment of complex sesquiterpines too, a second group of chemical signals that allow tress to "talk" to each other.
I got the two pines today. I may put one in the ground and the other in a pond planter to experiment.
The pines are about 18" tall. They came with potting soil around the roots, with the roots in plastic baggies.
I put them into clay pots for now with minimal disruption to the root balls because I didn't want to leave them in baggies.
For the pond planter pine, should I remove bare root it and remove tap root, then put it in bonsai soil mix (equal parts napa 8822, lava rock, gravel) ? Or should I put the root ball with much of the original soil attached into the bonsai mix?
For the ground pine I was going to just put it in the ground on top of a tile.
Here are the JBPs.
Also, obviously not pine or coniferous but here are some maple seedlings I grabbed from around the yard for some experiments.
The pines are about 18" tall. They came with potting soil around the roots, with the roots in plastic baggies.
I put them into clay pots for now with minimal disruption to the root balls because I didn't want to leave them in baggies.
For the pond planter pine, should I remove bare root it and remove tap root, then put it in bonsai soil mix (equal parts napa 8822, lava rock, gravel) ? Or should I put the root ball with much of the original soil attached into the bonsai mix?
For the ground pine I was going to just put it in the ground on top of a tile.
Here are the JBPs.
Also, obviously not pine or coniferous but here are some maple seedlings I grabbed from around the yard for some experiments.
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