8th U.S. National Bonsai Exhibition, Rochester, NY, USA, September 9-10, 2023
- Thread starter Pitoon
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roberthu
Chumono
I am really confused. Didn't the creators set up a booth to sell their inventories? I believe they are there to "sell"? Wholesale comes with deep discounts for a reason. The creators hauled their stuff to the exhibition with the intention to sell them all so they don't need to haul them back and sell one by one then package, ship and take the risk of the pots breaking during shipping. People who bought those pots then "flipped" at a profit made the trip which incurred additional expense, go back, find a buyer, then probably need to ship, then take the risk of pots breaking during shipping. Yes the profit may be high, but the risk is also high.
In the old days, people would wait outside of Walmart or Best Buy before Black Friday to get deep discounted items then try to sell them hours later. Do those qualify as "flippers"?
Sansokuu
Chumono
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Potters aren’t selling eggs or some good that can be churned out in homogenous volume. It isn’t like selling low fire generic mugs at Target. I worked retail and am familiar with the mark up between at cost to wholesale to retail. They still make money when stuff is heavily discounted. But handmade pots by a small volume potter is a very different story, and much more personal. Especially in a smaller community such as bonsai. It is simply a matter of ethics and I guess that topic could be discussed without any ‘right or wrong’ answers until the cows come home.
In terms of simple micro economics/business if potters are selling their stuff *that* fast it means they were priced too low and absolutely the potter should raise prices reasonably (supply and demand etc) so retailers who try to flip don’t find the decreased profit margins worth it to. Many who buy Mirai exclusive pottery find they cannot even recoup what they originally bought things at because the prices are too inflated for the perceived value of the pot. I am not saying potters should blow up their prices to that extent but certainly there is some balance in there, that is again, the potter’s personal choice to make.
roberthu
Chumono
I admire your desire and gesture. I agree if that if it was clearly stated that materials sold from your studio shall not be resold, then that person clearly broke the promise and should be banned.
Just a follow up question, would Mirai and Ryan Neil be on your block list? I believe that's what he does as part of his business. He buys trees and pots in large quantity and actually have exclusive contracts with quite a few pot creators. I believe the thread where people argue about the prices of the trees he has for sale is still quite active.
Sansokuu
Chumono
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Not even the old days, remember when PS5s came out? You’re telling me we should say ‘good for them!’ when people bought up PS5s to hawk at blown up prices was a smart business thing to do? Maybe for them it was, but I’m going to tell you everyone who didn’t get one cause of these people had an opinion of them that was anything but warm and fuzzy. But I digress. Bonsai trees! nationals!
Ugo
Shohin
Will pass the word to my friend Steve Ulrich!
Big applause to his great work and display
Hartinez
Masterpiece
Please do. The tree pictured here was probably my favorite of the show. Not the biggest tree in the world but it works so well. His wiring skills are on point, the deadwood in the way it interacted with the live portions of the tree were exceptional. and I really loved the pot pairing with the stand. Traditional as it gets in regards to a Bonsai display but I just loved every bit of it.
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
They really jammed trees into the show this year and did a major disservice to the exhibitors who have worked so hard. I volunteered for setup on Thursday and Friday. At noon on Friday, we were told to pull out more tables because everything was full and trees were still arriving. It was a haphazard scramble to find a place to put them all, and then those displays looked like crap next to the other trees with spacious setups.
This has been an issue for years. I helped with the final set up in 2016 and it was the same thing - all the spaces were filled and there were still a dozen or more trees to fit in. Kathy Shaner was in charge of rearranging things and I was on the crew that was moving the trees around. Some displays definitely suffered and there were a few unhappy campers the next day.
pak1351
Sapling
Bill and team have done a great job building up the show over the years and the format needs to evolve with it.
The venue is terrible; limited space, no ac, doesn’t fit the gravitas that the show seems to be going for in terms of formality of display
The logistics for getting registered and inside suck. Missed most of the Sean smith demo on Saturday standing in line just to get in the venue. Find a bigger space, sell fewer tickets, or sell tickets with time slots if you can’t accommodate everyone. Church bingo nights are more organized.
Some of these trees should have not been exhibited. Excluding developmental and styling ideas, some were clearly in poor health, wire hanging off branches, etc.
Photographing of trees for the album should be done prior to the exhibit or after hours. Not sure why you’re trying to move them when the venue is full/people are trying to actually see them displayed.
Vendor area remains a disaster of too many people with too many wares in too small of a space. Would love to have centralized check out areas where all vendor items are paid for at one location vs at each booth. Spend some time up front vs handwriting receipts at every vendor for every transaction.
People are still taking photos, either enforce it or don’t have a rule. I liked the digital walkthrough they did in 21, that should be done prior to the show opening, and live the day of exhibits, then nobody needs to take photos.
Would be nice to have the display cards give more credit to professionals who assisted in design/preparation (or lack thereof). Would be nice for all displays to have a display card too, quite a few were missing
The venue is terrible; limited space, no ac, doesn’t fit the gravitas that the show seems to be going for in terms of formality of display
The logistics for getting registered and inside suck. Missed most of the Sean smith demo on Saturday standing in line just to get in the venue. Find a bigger space, sell fewer tickets, or sell tickets with time slots if you can’t accommodate everyone. Church bingo nights are more organized.
Some of these trees should have not been exhibited. Excluding developmental and styling ideas, some were clearly in poor health, wire hanging off branches, etc.
Photographing of trees for the album should be done prior to the exhibit or after hours. Not sure why you’re trying to move them when the venue is full/people are trying to actually see them displayed.
Vendor area remains a disaster of too many people with too many wares in too small of a space. Would love to have centralized check out areas where all vendor items are paid for at one location vs at each booth. Spend some time up front vs handwriting receipts at every vendor for every transaction.
People are still taking photos, either enforce it or don’t have a rule. I liked the digital walkthrough they did in 21, that should be done prior to the show opening, and live the day of exhibits, then nobody needs to take photos.
Would be nice to have the display cards give more credit to professionals who assisted in design/preparation (or lack thereof). Would be nice for all displays to have a display card too, quite a few were missing
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Those people qualify as "useless middlemen," intent not only on buying a pot (or whatever), but as many pots (or whatever) as they can at one time, in one place in hopes of corralling as much money as they can. I'm no economist, but flipping is just a euphemism for "retail arbitrage" for the most part. Buying up as much of a scarce commodity as possible and then pushing up the price with unneeded mark up is simply arbitrage. You're buying stuff not because you really need it or even like it. You're buying it simply to add substantially onto the price of a popular item. The "flipping" stuff made popular by HGTV for housing is basically a scam--buy a house, add on useless (And easy) bells and whistles then add another $200 k to the asking price for what is still basically the same house.
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al345900
Sapling
They really jammed trees into the show this year and did a major disservice to the exhibitors who have worked so hard. I volunteered for setup on Thursday and Friday. At noon on Friday, we were told to pull out more tables because everything was full and trees were still arriving. It was a haphazard scramble to find a place to put them all, and then those displays looked like crap next to the other trees with spacious setups.
Bill V, of course, still had 10-12 "for exhibit only" trees. Those should be the last trees to fill the tables, IMO, and only if there's space left
The no photo policy is annoying and petulant as hell. The exhibition album doesn't ever put the accent plant or tree into the official photos, and those are incredibly important to the whole display. It's called a six-point shohin display for a reason! The sixth tree is dropped from the photos of all those displays. And @SouthernMaple is exactly right that someone standing out in the aisle isn't going to match Joe Noga's camera and professional lighting
I attended multiple National Bonsai Exhibitions since 2012 and over the years the issues are the same; there haven't been any improvements.
There are some extremely good trees and some that don't belong there. I asked years ago why; and the answer is that the organizer has political commitments or business commitments with customers or donors.
One of my friends got a tree accepted and drove 12 hours to get her tree to the exhibition. Her tree was rejected by the organizer. The organizer was running out of room and gave preference to other trees (lower quality) due to his political and business commitments.
This year one participant got 5 different shohin displays accepted. They were excellent? not really but he has political influence as past president of ABS. There is a tendency in the US of quantity vs quality.
I drove 12 hours to get to the exhibition to see the vendors and support their business. What I hear from the organizer on Friday? he was telling people if you are not a vendor you have to leave, the show will be open tomorrow.
I invest my time and money to buy the best stuff and that usually sells out on Friday when the vendors are setting up.
I don't know if there will be a National Show in the future as the organizer and his support crew are getting very old.
This year the awards presentation was dysfunctional and an embarrassment. The ABS President walked to the stage presented an Award, but it wasn't her turn to do that.
The organizer needs help, a ton of help to setup a professional organized event.
There are signs that this event is losing support from the Bonsai professionals like Ryan Neal and Kathy Shaner. It was nice to see that Tyler Sherrod, Boon, Suthin and Bjorn are supporting the event.
A positive thing is that the Bonsai community is evolving, growing, more diversified, younger, energetic and with new ideas.
namnhi
Masterpiece
All these discussions... it's safe to say I will need to cough up more cash if I want Ms. Lai pot.
It is safe to say everyone has a different moral compass... some feel that perfectly fine to flip stuff almost after bought for a profit without regard to creator... while others see that as a bad deal for creator and second hand buyers.
Vincent Tanner
Mame
I agree with all the anti-flipping sentiments. Bonsai has always felt like welcoming hobby. People build intentional community and help each other get involved. The potters / ceramicists are artists who want to see their work used and loved. The buying in bulk to resell has a cold, capitalist feel. It’s like selling your house to a young family who will love it for decades VS selling your house to Zillow. One warms your heart and one makes you feel bad.
I understand there are bonsai professionals who pay their bills through the bonsai industry, but there are much better ways to provide “value.”
I understand there are bonsai professionals who pay their bills through the bonsai industry, but there are much better ways to provide “value.”
Vincent Tanner
Mame
Shogun610
Masterpiece
You’re splitting hairs my dude… if it’s purely reselling and adding no value for material right after initial purchasing just for higher profit , at no benefit to the creator but I digress
Wood
Shohin
There were people very willing to do that this weekend. Friday afternoon, one vendor came and grabbed about 30 large pots from Nao, causing a bit of a scene. He took them back a few minutes later and didn't sell to anyone until Saturday morning. I really appreciated that he and Mary did their best to prevent other vendors flipping their pots over the weekend
RosePastry
Yamadori
Yesterday,I learned the good aspects of the no-picture rule. It forces people to mingle.
I went in early sunday and after staring at a few species too hard asked a man in an apron if I could walk the exhibits with me. Turns out he knew almost everyone and what plants he didnt know he introduced me to people as we passed who did and I learned a lot.
I also got to sneak into the photography room, talked to Bill about my pot, visit some private gardens nearby, and got invited to clubs all over!
So thanks to the event staff, Martin, and Julian. I cant wait til next exhibition!
I went in early sunday and after staring at a few species too hard asked a man in an apron if I could walk the exhibits with me. Turns out he knew almost everyone and what plants he didnt know he introduced me to people as we passed who did and I learned a lot.
I also got to sneak into the photography room, talked to Bill about my pot, visit some private gardens nearby, and got invited to clubs all over!
So thanks to the event staff, Martin, and Julian. I cant wait til next exhibition!
IzzyG
Shohin
First time attendee here and just gonna bullet points some feedback:
1: The community is awesome. Even if there were no trees, I’d still hang out with the community I met there. Everyone was friendly, spoke to one another like they’ve known each other for years and always willing to help in any way. I’ve never met @NaoTK or @Sansokuu but communicating with them as a customer and while trying to coordinate logistics was so darn easy!
2: The temperature inside the building was suffocating. I was helping Todd vend and even sitting still was uncomfortable. When I had to carry trees and pack pots, I was sweating buckets and they weren’t even large trees.
3: I said it multiple times this weekend to different vendors; they have my upmost respect for doing these shows. It’s ALOT of work! However, seeing different vendors sell out or had excellent sales was very positive! Shows that the art is gaining more buying pressure, which is good for everyone.
4: I’ve been involved in quite a few trade shows/exhibition/conferences(varied professions) and logistically the show definitely felt disorganized. I was there setting up a booth on Friday and it seemed like utter chaos. If not for the sheer number of amazing volunteers who just outworked any issue that came up, I’d imagine they’d have quite a bit of problem. The volunteers do not get the recognition they absolutely deserve!
5: I have to echo the sentiment on the trees. I do believe that PBE had a better selection of trees as entry was dictated by a committee vs one individual(and like all individuals, we all have biases).
6: I can confirm that Mirai wasn’t present because there was a scheduling conflict. Bill had informed people that there was a possibility of date change but didn’t confirm it until it was too late and Ryan had signed up for another project by then. The schedules for professionals are definitely set far in advanced(when booking Ryan, Todd and Bjorn, it was at least a discussion 14-16 months in advance unless it was some sort of quick/coincidentally opportunity). Mirai did have a representative there; Ira and they were also a sponsor. Much like Bjorn moving, I do wish speculations are minimized as it starts becoming rumors that does not positively influence the profession as a whole.
I’m sure I missed other points but I had an excellent time hanging out with other Bonsai practitioners/artists!
1: The community is awesome. Even if there were no trees, I’d still hang out with the community I met there. Everyone was friendly, spoke to one another like they’ve known each other for years and always willing to help in any way. I’ve never met @NaoTK or @Sansokuu but communicating with them as a customer and while trying to coordinate logistics was so darn easy!
2: The temperature inside the building was suffocating. I was helping Todd vend and even sitting still was uncomfortable. When I had to carry trees and pack pots, I was sweating buckets and they weren’t even large trees.
3: I said it multiple times this weekend to different vendors; they have my upmost respect for doing these shows. It’s ALOT of work! However, seeing different vendors sell out or had excellent sales was very positive! Shows that the art is gaining more buying pressure, which is good for everyone.
4: I’ve been involved in quite a few trade shows/exhibition/conferences(varied professions) and logistically the show definitely felt disorganized. I was there setting up a booth on Friday and it seemed like utter chaos. If not for the sheer number of amazing volunteers who just outworked any issue that came up, I’d imagine they’d have quite a bit of problem. The volunteers do not get the recognition they absolutely deserve!
5: I have to echo the sentiment on the trees. I do believe that PBE had a better selection of trees as entry was dictated by a committee vs one individual(and like all individuals, we all have biases).
6: I can confirm that Mirai wasn’t present because there was a scheduling conflict. Bill had informed people that there was a possibility of date change but didn’t confirm it until it was too late and Ryan had signed up for another project by then. The schedules for professionals are definitely set far in advanced(when booking Ryan, Todd and Bjorn, it was at least a discussion 14-16 months in advance unless it was some sort of quick/coincidentally opportunity). Mirai did have a representative there; Ira and they were also a sponsor. Much like Bjorn moving, I do wish speculations are minimized as it starts becoming rumors that does not positively influence the profession as a whole.
I’m sure I missed other points but I had an excellent time hanging out with other Bonsai practitioners/artists!
namnhi
Masterpiece
Really? How can these people even look at Mary or Nao when they were only tables away? Sometimes I wish I could do that but my face is too big for that. That is just cold!
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