Best soil for developing trees?

[Poink88]

I was only quoting you for the Pall reference, I wasnt insinuating that you know nothing of akadama. Whats interesting about these soil arguments is that the majority of the time people have no clue what they are using and why. Their supporting argument is Wang Lo, the infamous teacher out of Southern Vietnam uses petrified turtle poop so that is why I use it in New Hampshire.
Akadama is absolutely amazing for me in Southern California where #1)I know how to use it #2) its relatively affordable and very easy to come by #3)We dont freeze, and if so rarely.

The main reason some of us do not use a substrate (be it akadama, pumice, lava, turface, etc.) is availability. I would love to use most of it but to say that I cannot grow anything because I use turface is just plain wrong and elitist in my book. I make do with what I have, change them if I have to just to make them work....and you know what? They do work.

About that petrified turtle poop.....

 

[nathanbs]

It's not so much false as it is wrong headed and in a word: Ignorant. Anyone who comes from the point of view that it is their way or the wrong way is coming from no way.

not my statement, but I agree nonetheless with you.

 

[nathanbs]

The main reason some of us do not use a substrate (be it akadama, pumice, lava, turface, etc.) is availability. I would love to use most of it but to say that I cannot grow anything because I use turface is just plain wrong and elitist in my book. I make do with what I have, change them if I have to just to make them work....and you know what? They do work.

About that petrified turtle poop.....

Dario for the fun of it. Answer those three questions to give people a better understanding of how YOU make it work for you because you clearly do.
When people are experiencing poor health in their trees due to soil/watering/feeding one can look at those three questions and find the problem or at least find a solution

 

[Poink88]

The questions for soil components are:
1)What do you use to hold water?
2)what do you use to ensure that your soil isnt too wet? If/when necessary
3)What do you use to hold fertilizer in the soil?

I'll start with my base mix.
1 part turface
1 part DE
1 part (lava and/or pumice)
1 part potting soil or bark
1 cup (or so) of charcoal per 12 qt mix

1. all of my components hold water (I need it in TX)
2. I water only when needed...sometimes every other day. Recently (just this year) started sifting the fines off my mix using a 1/16" sieve (may change my watering sched for the newly potted trees). However, my old mix worked just fine w/o sifting. Never had any problems associated w/ overly wet substrate.
3. ferts should be held by the charcoal and potting soil/bark.

Not sure if I answered the questions as you intended.

 

[nathanbs]

I'll start with my base mix.
1 part turface
1 part DE
1 part (lava and/or pumice)
1 part potting soil or bark
1 cup (or so) of charcoal per 12 qt mix

1. all of my components hold water (I need it in TX)
2. I water only when needed...sometimes every other day. Recently (just this year) started sifting the fines off my mix using a 1/16" sieve (may change my watering sched for the newly potted trees). However, my old mix worked just fine w/o sifting. Never had any problems associated w/ overly wet substrate.
3. ferts should be held by the charcoal and potting soil/bark.

Not sure if I answered the questions as you intended.

Good enough. The one area that I see that could use better defining would be your hold water or not hold water aspect. It works for you but there is some potential redundancy or cancellation of opposite ingredients. So I think at worst it could use some simplification. The one thing i will oppose is the use of lava, as recently someone I highly respect that was a soil science major at Cal Poly told me that the tension at which lava holds the water is too great for the roots to remove. This is due to the pores on lava being too large from what I understood.

For me
1)Akadama holds water great
2)Pumice, very dry helps keep soil from being too wet.
3)Akadama, Charcoal, firbark(this is a recent addition based on same soil science guy) This amounts to a killer CEC

I vary the amount of akadama based on the moisture needs of each plant/pot combo. More akadama when more water is needed. Sometimes zero akadama on recently repotted trees that have little or no roots. If I still have a moisture loss issue even with a large ratio of akadama in my mix I will do a top dressing of chopped spaghnum and dried crumbled green moss.

 

[Eric Group]

I would respond but you already know what I do...and I gave up on soil threads a long time ago...try a couple things...see what works for you. Then you to can be a soil expert.

Well, I have tried dozens of things over the past ten years or so... In the past year alone I have probably modified about 5-10 different mixes for various trees and various stages of development, so I must be THE expert! Why am I wasting my time talking to all these amateurs? Tell you what, if anybody has any questions about soil, just ask me! I already gave out the secret though- marbles. Definitely marbles. They don't break down, won't settle and compact the soil, come in whatever color you might want- match your pot color if you wish! They are completely void of PH or any contaminants... Yep, definitely marbles from here on!

Oh, did I mention that the only trees I grow are lucky Bamboo? That is What a Bonsai is right?

 

[Eric Group]

My approach (from an earlier post in this thread) is below.

For trees in the ground, I amend the soil in my growing bed with compost, used bonsai mix and the screenings from sifting bonsai components (so finer turface, pumice, whatever I have on hand). I'm thinking I might start amending my grow bed soil with more turface.

I haven't been doing this long enough to have long term results (for ground or container growing) to point to.

Chris

Thanks Chris! I think I did see your reply and I appreciate it! I use almost identical ingredients when putting trees in the ground- compost (I make my own from leaves, grass clippings and kitchen/ garden waste for my vegetable garden) or "garden soil" as in like Miracle Grow garden soil which is basically well rotted compost with some fertilizer in it I believe mixed with some used and screened out/ dried out/ sterilized old Bonsai mix just to keep the roots in something that has a little more substance to it. That garden soil/ compost just melts down to muck basically after a couple months, but when fortified with some turface/ pumice... And stuff it holds up a little better and is easier to wash out of the roots when the tree comes out of the ground IMO.

 

[nathanbs]

Good enough. The one area that I see that could use better defining would be your hold water or not hold water aspect. It works for you but there is some potential redundancy or cancellation of opposite ingredients. So I think at worst it could use some simplification. The one thing i will oppose is the use of lava, as recently someone I highly respect that was a soil science major at Cal Poly told me that the tension at which lava holds the water is too great for the roots to remove. This is due to the pores on lava being too large from what I understood.

For me
1)Akadama holds water great
2)Pumice, very dry helps keep soil from being too wet.
3)Akadama, Charcoal, firbark(this is a recent addition based on same soil science guy) This amounts to a killer CEC

I vary the amount of akadama based on the moisture needs of each plant/pot combo. More akadama when more water is needed. Sometimes zero akadama on recently repotted trees that have little or no roots. If I still have a moisture loss issue even with a large ratio of akadama in my mix I will do a top dressing of chopped spaghnum and dried crumbled green moss.

I should have should that I personally am stopping the use of lava. I shouldnt have come off as if I was preaching for you to stop

 

[Eric Group]

I just found some chicken Grit/ crushed granite at a local Tractor supply. This is something I have hear of people using in bonsai mixes quite frequently and never trid myself... I assume the moisture absorbing capacity is quite low- it is just what it says it is a GRIT ("True Grit" perhaps? Lol). I think this is a good addition for my mixes because almost every element I use normally absorbs a decent amount of water.

I also grabbed a little bag of crushed oyster shell- adds some calcium, sounded like a good idea... Anybody ever use this? Is there a concern about adding salts to your soil with an ingredient like this? It is a small bag and probably won't constitute more than 5-10% of any mix I put it in. I assume this ingredient is a base as well and lowers the acidity of the soil... Probably not good for Azaleas?

Obviously these are not ingredients I will use for developing trees/ ground planted stuff, more something for me to mix into bonsai soils...

I got some diatomaceous Earth as well, but that is more for my vegetable garden. I have read about multiple uses of this stuff to organically grow better veggies, and figured it was time to give it a try!

 

[nathanbs]

I just found some chicken Grit/ crushed granite at a local Tractor supply. This is something I have hear of people using in bonsai mixes quite frequently and never trid myself... I assume the moisture absorbing capacity is quite low- it is just what it says it is a GRIT ("True Grit" perhaps? Lol). I think this is a good addition for my mixes because almost every element I use normally absorbs a decent amount of water.

I also grabbed a little bag of crushed oyster shell- adds some calcium, sounded like a good idea... Anybody ever use this? Is there a concern about adding salts to your soil with an ingredient like this? It is a small bag and probably won't constitute more than 5-10% of any mix I put it in. I assume this ingredient is a base as well and lowers the acidity of the soil... Probably not good for Azaleas?

Obviously these are not ingredients I will use for developing trees/ ground planted stuff, more something for me to mix into bonsai soils...

I got some diatomaceous Earth as well, but that is more for my vegetable garden. I have read about multiple uses of this stuff to organically grow better veggies, and figured it was time to give it a try!

sorry not too familiar with the chicken grit but it sounds like you are on the right path understanding what it can offer you, weight would be my only concern with it. No idea on the oyster shells. DE depends on the size of the particles, could be very similar to using pumice I think.
What do you use for the fertilizer holding aspect?

 

[wireme]

Oyster shells- never tried but everyone always says its a bad idea.

Granite grit- I've recently switched from mainly granite grit to mainly pumice. Surprisingly to me the trees in the old granite mix appear to hold moisture longer than in the new pumice mix, other ingredients being more or less equal. Surprising to me because of the higher absorption capacity of the pumice. I think it's due to higher air exchange drying the mix out faster which is probably a good thing. I switched to pumice more or less because it's accepted as a great component by so many people and there are many who think granite is nearly useless. Nevertheless the trees that I moved out of the granite mix had root systems that I was very pleased with, I will continue to use some in my mix I do suspect it's a source of minerals trace elements etc that become available due to breakdown by fungi etc. pumice may be lacking that. Speaking of dry vs wet elements I've initially found that pumice seems to act as a drier element than granite grit.

 

[Eric Group]

sorry not too familiar with the chicken grit but it sounds like you are on the right path understanding what it can offer you, weight would be my only concern with it. No idea on the oyster shells. DE depends on the size of the particles, could be very similar to using pumice I think.
What do you use for the fertilizer holding aspect?

I have always relied on organic components like sifted composted bark and stuff like that to hold the nutrients... A little chopped up sphagnum sometimes too. I sift all the ingredients to remove the fines, but those organics seem to do the trick!

 

[Dav4]

I've been trying to stay out of this but soil threads are like black holes- they always end up pulling you in. Anyway, oyster shell is mostly calcium carbonate, which is chemically alkaline...I go out of my way to try to keep things on the acidic side so I'd avoid this. Also, I used to use quart/grit/decomposed granite in my mix but got rid of it because it was too heavy in larger pots. Depending on what stage of development the tree is at, I use everything from my standard bonsai mix of pumice/turface/lava, to pumice/turface to straight soil conditioner, which is basically composted pine bark- this is what I root and grow out all my shimpaku cuttings in. There's more then one way to skin a cat, that's for sure.

 

[nathanbs]

Oyster shells- never tried but everyone always says its a bad idea.

Granite grit- I've recently switched from mainly granite grit to mainly pumice. Surprisingly to me the trees in the old granite mix appear to hold moisture longer than in the new pumice mix, other ingredients being more or less equal. Surprising to me because of the higher absorption capacity of the pumice. I think it's due to higher air exchange drying the mix out faster which is probably a good thing. I switched to pumice more or less because it's accepted as a great component by so many people and there are many who think granite is nearly useless. Nevertheless the trees that I moved out of the granite mix had root systems that I was very pleased with, I will continue to use some in my mix I do suspect it's a source of minerals trace elements etc that become available due to breakdown by fungi etc. pumice may be lacking that. Speaking of dry vs wet elements I've initially found that pumice seems to act as a drier element than granite grit.

As far as I know pumice is universally known to be drier than just about anything. This is why it is perfect for freshly collected trees that have very little root wise

 

[Poink88]

Do not use the oyster shell.

 

[Darth Tanuki]

I don't know how you can possibly make that kind of assessment. You would have had to see hundreds or thousands of examples of the root development people have obtained without Akadama, which leads me to believe that you really have not been doing bonsai long enough to really know anything. But; you have been sold on this idea by your "World Famous Teacher" who you happen to think is God, that this is so.

Anger leads to the Dark Side.

 

[Vance Wood]

Anger leads to the Dark Side.

Being condescending and misguided leads their much quicker. I'm not angry just disappointed that anyone could have such a narrow focused point of view and the hubris to post it openly. I really don't care what you use as a bonsai soil. By the way is there a reason you have not posted your location? You should know that location has a lot to do with what you can use in a soil and what you should not use. I am thinking you probably live in South Carolina, Alabama, or California.

 

[Darth Tanuki]

Rmj after 3 yrs in 70 percent granite grit and 30 percent uncomposted bark chunks. Premium? Dunno but pretty good for 2 soil components that are not well thought of by many.

For bulk soil for developing stock I plan on using perlite and bark this year, Brent from evergreen has said here before it works well for him. If I do get a bulk order of pumice I'll use that in place of perlite.

The pic is a snapshot from an old thread of mine.

Thank you wireme for posting a picture rather than making excuses. Your are right - those are surprisingly not bad roots for a bark chunk mix.

I did a google image search for bonsai roots and picked the first three pics that appeared to me to have premium roots. As it turns out, all three are grown in an akadama mix. BTW, growing in 100% akadama is not recommended - it is too wet. There can be too much of a good thing.

 

[garywood]

http://bonsainut.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=31230&d=1361538401
no akadama

 

[small trees]

Thank you wireme for posting a picture rather than making excuses. Your are right - those are surprisingly not bad roots for a bark chunk mix.

I did a google image search for bonsai roots and picked the first three pics that appeared to me to have premium roots. As it turns out, all three are grown in an akadama mix. BTW, growing in 100% akadama is not recommended - it is too wet. There can be too much of a good thing.

That second picture looks like one of BVF's trees. I enjoy lurking these soil threads.

http://bonsainut.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=31230&d=1361538401
no akadama

Awesome nebari on that one!