Best soil for developing trees?

[nathanbs]

http://bonsainut.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=31230&d=1361538401
no akadama

Gary remind me. Pumice and .....?

 

[Poink88]

Thank you wireme for posting a picture rather than making excuses. Your are right - those are surprisingly not bad roots for a bark chunk mix.

I did a google image search for bonsai roots and picked the first three pics that appeared to me to have premium roots. As it turns out, all three are grown in an akadama mix. BTW, growing in 100% akadama is not recommended - it is too wet. There can be too much of a good thing.

I do not use akadama (not because I do not like it...just don't have any) and I can assure you that my tree's roots are as as dense as those. Not as nicely formed & developed yet since I am starting but as healthy and dense.

Akadama may be good, but it is not the only good stuff.

 

[Darth Tanuki]

Being condescending and misguided leads their much quicker. I'm not angry just disappointed that anyone could have such a narrow focused point of view and the hubris to post it openly. I really don't care what you use as a bonsai soil. By the way is there a reason you have not posted your location? You should know that location has a lot to do with what you can use in a soil and what you should not use. I am thinking you probably live in South Carolina, Alabama, or California.

Have you heard of projection? Were you being kind referring to a world famous teacher as "god". Didn't sound very open minded and olive branch extending to me. Actually sounded quite insulting to somebody not even a part of this thread. I use equal parts akadama, lava and pumice which I think is what is called god's mix. It is used with great results that I know of in these same ratios in Washington, Oregon, California, Minnesota, Missouri, Kansas, Oklahoma, Texas, New Jersey, New York, Georgia, Florida, Arkansas and Connecticut. I have used many mixes over the last 30 years and never have seen anything that comes even close to consistently producing such great roots. I see a lot of excuses and just plain close mindedness that does not accept that this mix simply works. I don't give a damn what soil mix you use either, I see you as the narrow minded individual bringing nothing to the table, and to the detriment of many young bonsai enthusiasts on this forum that will quickly save a buck and not give it a chance. I have attached a pic of a juniper collected 3 years ago, which has been in god's mix for 2 of these years.

 

[Darth Tanuki]

I do not use akadama (not because I do not like it...just don't have any) and I can assure you that my tree's roots are as as dense as those. Not as nicely formed & developed yet since I am starting but as healthy and dense.

Akadama may be good, but it is not the only good stuff.

Picture please. I am not assured.

 

[Darth Tanuki]

http://bonsainut.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=31230&d=1361538401
no akadama

Not bad, but not quite as dense. Do you get the ramification in your final design with this non akadama mix?

 

[Poink88]

Picture please. I am not assured.

LOL. I do not need you to be assured if you don't want. As I said, you will have to wait till I repot.

BTW, how is your trident maple seedling for our challenge? Are you still on or tapped out? One big advantage to you...you can use Akadama and I won't. LOL

 

[Eric Schrader]

I have a batch of about 50 JBP from seed that were started 6 years ago. From the outset about half were potted into bonsai mix and then into pond baskets in akadama/pumice/lava. The other half were potted into 1-gallon containers at 1 year old with "UC Davis mix" which is sand, redwood sawdust and peat moss, basically standard potting soil. I don't think anyone on this forum would advocate its use but this was a bit of a test. It is used extensively in the nursery industry.

After 5 years with the same fertilizer, water and weather, the ones in potting mix were struggling, a couple died, many others had no side budding. The trunks are about pencil sized. The ones in bonsai mix in pond baskets have about 1" trunks, are twice the height and are covered in healthy small buds.

My best guess is that the ones in the UC mix were being over-watered pretty consistently. I would skip days here and there to try to let them dry out a little but didn't keep track scientifically. As soon as I repotted some of them into bonsai soil they got healthy again and started growing correctly.

Bottom line for me: if you want to waste time growing things and not getting results then use crappy soil. If you want to grow trees that will be bonsai quickly use bonsai mix (in whatever iteration you prefer!) You can see the results of my efforts in my pine thread.

 

[M. Frary]

?o

Ok great, so we established clay is not a god medium, nor are marbles... A pot is different from planting in the ground and root rot exists...

But, what do ya'll (yeah I am from the south, substitute "you guys" or you'uns if it makes you feel better..) plant your developing trees in? How about those you are putting in the ground to grow out?

That is what I a trying to get at here...

I realize my long winded off topic posts send this thread off in all kinds of funky directions, my point was just to say trees are a little more durable and hardy than many seem to give them credit for. Like any animal/ plant, they WANT to grow and if you give them reasonable care they will do just that. I know the answers as to what bonsai mix is best will be different from just about everybody I ask... But again, I am trying to find out what others do with young developing trees where the goal is rapid growth, not refinement in a bonsai tray. So, you have a half inch trunk on a Trident whip, you decide it is time to plant that thing int he ground until it gets to two or three inches- you dig a hole, plant on a board/ tile/ garbage bag/ whatever and then you fill in the hole with.... What exactly?

Just wondering... I would have to scan back through the thread but it seems almost nobody has answered that question for me. I do thank everyone for the detailed responses received. I have gotten a lot of good info from this thread already! This is probably more of a curiosity thing than informational... I tend to mix it up based on what I am planting and what is available but I am just curious what others do.

Thanks

When I grow trees in the ground I usually amend the soil with whatever on hand like some pine bark, some used bonsai soil but mainly use a lot of the existing soil I dug out of the ground(pure sand here).
For developing in containers(mainly collanders) I use Napa oil dry and some pine bark.

 

[quietobserver]

I have a batch of about 50 JBP from seed that were started 6 years ago. From the outset about half were potted into bonsai mix and then into pond baskets in akadama/pumice/lava. The other half were potted into 1-gallon containers at 1 year old with "UC Davis mix" which is sand, redwood sawdust and peat moss, basically standard potting soil. I don't think anyone on this forum would advocate its use but this was a bit of a test. It is used extensively in the nursery industry.

After 5 years with the same fertilizer, water and weather, the ones in potting mix were struggling, a couple died, many others had no side budding. The trunks are about pencil sized. The ones in bonsai mix in pond baskets have about 1" trunks, are twice the height and are covered in healthy small buds.

My best guess is that the ones in the UC mix were being over-watered pretty consistently. I would skip days here and there to try to let them dry out a little but didn't keep track scientifically. As soon as I repotted some of them into bonsai soil they got healthy again and started growing correctly.

Bottom line for me: if you want to waste time growing things and not getting results then use crappy soil. If you want to grow trees that will be bonsai quickly use bonsai mix (in whatever iteration you prefer!) You can see the results of my efforts in my pine thread.

Uh oh, negative UC anything speech equals IRS and or EPA visit.

Much luck to you....

 

[Eric Group]

Do not use the oyster shell.

I got some out of the package and did a little experimenting- It had odd sized particles, a lot of dust on it, and I wet some in my little screening thing for the soil... It basically created like a slimy meniscus layer of water around the bottom, didn't drain through but didn't absorb the water either... And when wet it smells, well like a dead oyster! Not a pleasant thing all around. I will not be using it!

 

[Eric Group]

I have a batch of about 50 JBP from seed that were started 6 years ago. From the outset about half were potted into bonsai mix and then into pond baskets in akadama/pumice/lava. The other half were potted into 1-gallon containers at 1 year old with "UC Davis mix" which is sand, redwood sawdust and peat moss, basically standard potting soil. I don't think anyone on this forum would advocate its use but this was a bit of a test. It is used extensively in the nursery industry.

After 5 years with the same fertilizer, water and weather, the ones in potting mix were struggling, a couple died, many others had no side budding. The trunks are about pencil sized. The ones in bonsai mix in pond baskets have about 1" trunks, are twice the height and are covered in healthy small buds.

My best guess is that the ones in the UC mix were being over-watered pretty consistently. I would skip days here and there to try to let them dry out a little but didn't keep track scientifically. As soon as I repotted some of them into bonsai soil they got healthy again and started growing correctly.

Bottom line for me: if you want to waste time growing things and not getting results then use crappy soil. If you want to grow trees that will be bonsai quickly use bonsai mix (in whatever iteration you prefer!) You can see the results of my efforts in my pine thread.

That is about as scientific as I would get with it! Great job!

From your story I would agree it probably sounds like the potting soil plants were over watered, but that doesn't mean they would have grown as well or better than the Bonsai soil trees if watered a little less. I might also point out that the amount and type of fertilizer used in potting soil vs bonsai soil should be different as well. Potting soil with mostly organic components will hold ferts a lot longer usually- or at least the salts from them build up more. The nutrients may be stripped at a similar speed, but more salts build up which we all know can cause all sorts of issues with the roots.. I suspect your experiment is as close as we will get to "proof" of one general type of soil vs another. Very interesting results for sure!

 

[M. Frary]

Have you heard of projection? Were you being kind referring to a world famous teacher as "god". Didn't sound very open minded and olive branch extending to me. Actually sounded quite insulting to somebody not even a part of this thread. I use equal parts akadama, lava and pumice which I think is what is called god's mix. It is used with great results that I know of in these same ratios in Washington, Oregon, California, Minnesota, Missouri, Kansas, Oklahoma, Texas, New Jersey, New York, Georgia, Florida, Arkansas and Connecticut. I have used many mixes over the last 30 years and never have seen anything that comes even close to consistently producing such great roots. I see a lot of excuses and just plain close mindedness that does not accept that this mix simply works. I don't give a damn what soil mix you use either, I see you as the narrow minded individual bringing nothing to the table, and to the detriment of many young bonsai enthusiasts on this forum that will quickly save a buck and not give it a chance. I have attached a pic of a juniper collected 3 years ago, which has been in god's mix for 2 of these years.

Never heard of "Gods mix". Is it possible to get some sent down from heaven to Michigan too?

 

[Poink88]

I have a batch of about 50 JBP from seed that were started 6 years ago. From the outset about half were potted into bonsai mix and then into pond baskets in akadama/pumice/lava. The other half were potted into 1-gallon containers at 1 year old with "UC Davis mix" which is sand, redwood sawdust and peat moss, basically standard potting soil. I don't think anyone on this forum would advocate its use but this was a bit of a test. It is used extensively in the nursery industry.

After 5 years with the same fertilizer, water and weather, the ones in potting mix were struggling, a couple died, many others had no side budding. The trunks are about pencil sized. The ones in bonsai mix in pond baskets have about 1" trunks, are twice the height and are covered in healthy small buds.

My best guess is that the ones in the UC mix were being over-watered pretty consistently. I would skip days here and there to try to let them dry out a little but didn't keep track scientifically. As soon as I repotted some of them into bonsai soil they got healthy again and started growing correctly.

Bottom line for me: if you want to waste time growing things and not getting results then use crappy soil. If you want to grow trees that will be bonsai quickly use bonsai mix (in whatever iteration you prefer!) You can see the results of my efforts in my pine thread.

Question is how much of the difference was due to the soil and how much was due to the container?

You used a good draining soil in colanders...and potting soil in 1 gallon pots which are much deeper & enclosed container. Not very scientific as far as I am concerned.

I do not question your results but you introduced variables that makes it impossible to compare substrate results.

 

[Vance Wood]

Question is how much of the difference was due to the soil and how much was due to the container?

You used a good draining soil in colanders...and potting soil in 1 gallon pots which are much deeper & enclosed container. Not very scientific as far as I am concerned.

I do not question your results but you introduced variables that makes it impossible to compare substrate results.

Screened containers will allow cement (metaphor) to drain well. As far as offering a skewed experiment guaranteed to give a skewed result the above experiment is precisely that. Personally I don't care what you use in a soil mix I just have problems sitting here while being expected to tolerate somebody speaking in absolutes. I have found that in bonsai there are generally no absolutes when it comes to a soil ingredient you absolutely have to use. I also have problems believing that Darth *** really cares a hoot about it either, he is just looking for reasons to stick his butt in everyone's face.

 

[Eric Group]

I've been trying to stay out of this but soil threads are like black holes- they always end up pulling you in. Anyway, oyster shell is mostly calcium carbonate, which is chemically alkaline...I go out of my way to try to keep things on the acidic side so I'd avoid this. Also, I used to use quart/grit/decomposed granite in my mix but got rid of it because it was too heavy in larger pots. Depending on what stage of development the tree is at, I use everything from my standard bonsai mix of pumice/turface/lava, to pumice/turface to straight soil conditioner, which is basically composted pine bark- this is what I root and grow out all my shimpaku cuttings in. There's more then one way to skin a cat, that's for sure.

Ha! That soil conditioner/ pine bark is something I use as well! That comprises most of my organic component honestly. I mix it with my garden compost, let it rot for a few weeks/ months, sift, remove any big pieces and drop it in the mix. I will have to try some cuttings in this stuff! I am using mostly perlite right now for this year's cuttings. I will have to see which does better for me!

I honestly wish I could find some Akadama at an affordable price..

I still have yet to be convinced turface should not be used or that it is detrimental to the mix despite seeing a few people write negative things about it. I find it to be a great ingredient- heavy enough to hold your tree down, but not super heavy in big pots... A uniform size, irregular shape, good color, changes color when wet vs dry, drains well but absorbs a decent amount of water, accessible for me and relatively cheap... Perhaps it is not the best ingredient in the world, but it does a fine job in my experience.

Pumice is a great ingredient as well for many of the same reasons though a little dryer- but it is much harder to find, has to be shipped to me and that makes it expensive. I have been looking around for dry stall everywhere and cannot find it!

Never been able to find lava rock at a reasonable/ useable size for Bonsai either. Other than ordering it online- again expensive!- I cannot seem to find it!

 

[Vance Wood]

Ha! That soil conditioner/ pine bark is something I use as well! That comprises most of my organic component honestly. I mix it with my garden compost, let it rot for a few weeks/ months, sift, remove any big pieces and drop it in the mix. I will have to try some cuttings in this stuff! I am using mostly perlite right now for this year's cuttings. I will have to see which does better for me!

I honestly wish I could find some Akadama at an affordable price..

I still have yet to be convinced turface should not be used or that it is detrimental to the mix despite seeing a few people write negative things about it. I find it to be a great ingredient- heavy enough to hold your tree down, but not super heavy in big pots... A uniform size, irregular shape, good color, changes color when wet vs dry, drains well but absorbs a decent amount of water, accessible for me and relatively cheap... Perhaps it is not the best ingredient in the world, but it does a fine job in my experience.

Pumice is a great ingredient as well for many of the same reasons though a little dryer- but it is much harder to find, has to be shipped to me and that makes it expensive. I have been looking around for dry stall everywhere and cannot find it!

Never been able to find lava rock at a reasonable/ useable size for Bonsai either. Other than ordering it online- again expensive!- I cannot seem to find it!

I have used Turface for over forty years and have not had any detrimental effects from it.

 

[Smoke]

I find it chilling as I read thru each persons post about what they use for soil mix.

There is one thing that intertwines each of these soil mixes and all of them have to do with akadama's properties and how that crowd uses it, and those that don't use it and make do with other things.

It all pinpoints to one constant in each of the mixes world wide and with every user, even Walter Pall.

 

[nathanbs]

I find it chilling as I read thru each persons post about what they use for soil mix.

There is one thing that intertwines each of these soil mixes and all of them have to do with akadama's properties and how that crowd uses it, and those that don't use it and make do with other things.

It all pinpoints to one constant in each of the mixes world wide and with every user, even Walter Pall.

And that is Mr. Keppler?

 

[Poink88]

I find it chilling as I read thru each persons post about what they use for soil mix.

There is one thing that intertwines each of these soil mixes and all of them have to do with akadama's properties and how that crowd uses it, and those that don't use it and make do with other things.

It all pinpoints to one constant in each of the mixes world wide and with every user, even Walter Pall.

Why do you always have to get (beg) for attention? You tell me drama but you are the one full of drama (pot calling kettle black?).

If you have something useful to share, please...please, SAY IT!

 

[Poink88]

I should have should that I personally am stopping the use of lava. I shouldnt have come off as if I was preaching for you to stop

Missed this. No problem, I didn't take it that way.

I use some lava since I need more water AND because it offers some minerals my other ingredients don't. Like you, I also add chopped sphagnum moss at times esp. for rooting cuttings and newly collected plants. By no means did I list all the stuff I add because most are not used regularly and when I do, only in small quantities.