Best soil for developing trees?

[Vance Wood]

And that is Mr. Keppler?

I can answer that: There's no shit like Bull Shit. It boils down to whether you're buying or selling. That is the constant. Now; if Al has some hidden wisdom he has discovered he should reveal it, other wise it is simply Bull Shit. There is of course one other possibility that even I, am not bold enough to mention, though it has been coming up now and again mostly in private messages from sundry sources.

 

[bwaynef]

I honestly wish I could find some Akadama at an affordable price..

I still have yet to be convinced turface should not be used or that it is detrimental to the mix despite seeing a few people write negative things about it. I find it to be a great ingredient- heavy enough to hold your tree down, but not super heavy in big pots... A uniform size, irregular shape, good color, changes color when wet vs dry, drains well but absorbs a decent amount of water, accessible for me and relatively cheap... Perhaps it is not the best ingredient in the world, but it does a fine job in my experience.

Have WeeTree ship you a box of pre-mixed (Lava, Akadama, Pumice) soil for $39 (which includes shipping). Run your own experiments.

Also, the Bonsai Learning Center in Charlotte got a pallet of Akadama (I'm pretty sure). I know some of your locals have connections with the Charlotte club.

As for Pumice, Southern States dealers can order DryStall.

 

[Smoke]

Why do you always have to get (beg) for attention? You tell me drama but you are the one full of drama (pot calling kettle black?).

If you have something useful to share, please...please, SAY IT!

I have said it over and over till I am blue in the face. You are a newbie to this forum as well as many here in this very conversation. Read my threads about soil and humates. I have gone thru this too many times. If people would listen and understand the chemistry of soil CEC and adsorption then it will become clear on what it is that people do to their soil and why each can have success with whatever they use as long as they key component is there.

So....far I have not read one soil formula here yet that is totaly inorganic. Start there and start making a list for the commonalities and you will see the big picture.

 

[nathanbs]

Missed this. No problem, I didn't take it that way.

I use some lava since I need more water AND because it offers some minerals my other ingredients don't. Like you, I also add chopped sphagnum moss at times esp. for rooting cuttings and newly collected plants. By no means did I list all the stuff I add because most are not used regularly and when I do, only in small quantities.

Maybe the macro pores are too much for roots to utilize but perhaps the other particles adjacent to the lava can absorb their moisture and make it available for the roots

 

[Poink88]

Maybe the macro pores are too much for roots to utilize but perhaps the other particles adjacent to the lava can absorb their moisture and make it available for the roots

Sure...moisture will wick out to the drier "neighbor" think diffusion and osmosis my friend.

BTW, that info about lava macro pores, ergo roots cannot utilize the water...I think is bunk. Also note that some here use extra large (relatively) soil components to create much bigger pores than lava "macro pores" with success.

 

[Vance Wood]

Maybe the macro pores are too much for roots to utilize but perhaps the other particles adjacent to the lava can absorb their moisture and make it available for the roots

I don't know whether anyone has thought about this but, did you ever notice that in a natural state no Pine or Juniper grows in Akadama. On the contrary; most trees in nature grow in some pretty terrible soil conditions but manage to survive. It would not be the first time I have been accused of not know how to do bonsai or doing it right, or my trees are considered to be second rate by those who follow the Master.

 

[Darth Tanuki]

Maybe the macro pores are too much for roots to utilize but perhaps the other particles adjacent to the lava can absorb their moisture and make it available for the roots

If lava is poor for root development, Hawaii must be a barren wasteland.

 

[Darth Tanuki]

I don't know whether anyone has thought about this but, did you ever notice that in a natural state no Pine or Juniper grows in Akadama. On the contrary; most trees in nature grow in some pretty terrible soil conditions but manage to survive. It would not be the first time I have been accused of not know how to do bonsai or doing it right, or my trees are considered to be second rate by those who follow the Master.

They grow naturally in decomposed granite. That's why they are put into pumice right after collecting, to get them to extend new roots in search of water and nutrients. But once established we don't want just long extended roots in our pots, we want to take advantage of the limited volume in our bonsai pot and god's mix effectively slows down the extension and provides a medium for the development of many fibrous roots.

 

[Vance Wood]

They grow naturally in decomposed granite. That's why they are put into pumice right after collecting, to get them to extend new roots in search of water and nutrients. But once established we don't want just long extended roots in our pots, we want to take advantage of the limited volume in our bonsai pot and god's mix effectively slows down the extension and provides a medium for the development of many fibrous roots.

So you say but;----you cannot prove it.

Below you will see so many fiberous roots (check out top right) that the root ball has to be reduced with a saw. This tree was grown without a grain of Akadama or pumice but grew for years in one of my training planters, using my own mix. You don't see any of the long Chinese-noodle-like roots you find in the bottom of most pots because, the training planter will not allow them to form. As soon as a root encounters the screen it is pruned and forced to produce fine feeder roots. This tree was removed from the training planter in June of 2006.

 

[nathanbs]

Sure...moisture will wick out to the drier "neighbor" think diffusion and osmosis my friend.

BTW, that info about lava macro pores, ergo roots cannot utilize the water...I think is bunk. Also note that some here use extra large (relatively) soil components to create much bigger pores than lava "macro pores" with success.

If lava is poor for root development, Hawaii must be a barren wasteland.

I will ask the soil science major a see what say thou. Btw most tropicals as in Hawaii will grow just about anywhere because of the humidity. I was told recently of a Hawaiian native that would collect some interesting ficus trees by cutting off the tops of fence posts whereupon a bird pooped a ficus seed and it grew on top of the fence post. I think I just had an epiphany! I am going to put fence posts in my soil!!!

 

[Vance Wood]

Again it is like I said previously. To speak in absolutes about soil is like proclaiming to the world your own ignorance. Here is another example from the repot done in June of 06. Notice my assistant Nick is holding a piece of the soil ball that was removed shortly before. Notice how it is held together. Look at the material on the tarp. That's not mud that's a proper substrate full of roots.

 

[coh]

Not sure what the issue may be with lava. I had used some as a drain layer in a pot and when I repotted I found that tree roots had grown around and through the lava particles. The photo below (lifted from an earlier thread) shows a lava particle being suspended by a root that was actually growing out of the particle.

Seems like some pretty root-friendly stuff to me!

Chris

 

[Vance Wood]

Not sure what the issue may be with lava. I had used some as a drain layer in a pot and when I repotted I found that tree roots had grown around and through the lava particles. The photo below (lifted from an earlier thread) shows a lava particle being suspended by a root that was actually growing out of the particle.

Seems like some pretty root-friendly stuff to me!

Chris

Again; speaking in absolutes about soil is usually a formulae for embarrassment.

 

[thumblessprimate1]

Despite all the different strong opinions on this rapidly growing thread, it has some very good info and makes me think. I'm unconvinced that there is one good mix for everyone everywhere. There are too many factors related to and not limited to watering, fertilizing, type of container, repotting, and climate. That is my 2 cents.

 

[iant]

Al started the roots growing through the particle thing with the bark piece above. I agree it looks cool but it's not very scientific to go from the picture to a conclusion. I could get roots to grow through wire mesh but it doesn't mean that we should put a bunch of wire mesh in our pots. I think this is all dead horse material at this point. I personally like appropriate sized sifted particles of something porous like pumice, lava, perlite. I add a little bark for the deciduous. I can't afford Akadama right now but I'd suspect I'd like it about as much as I like pumice... maybe a little more because it's Japanese and expensive.
Ian

 

[Dav4]

This is a shimpaku cutting I started a year ago in the soil conditioner. It was up potted about a month ago, but hasn't had a chance to grow roots into the new soil. We had high winds yesterday followed by lows in the mid 20's F this AM. The wind must have blown it loose from the pot....it's frozen solid right now...it'll be growing again tomorrow.

 

[Vance Wood]

Al started the roots growing through the particle thing with the bark piece above. I agree it looks cool but it's not very scientific to go from the picture to a conclusion. I could get roots to grow through wire mesh but it doesn't mean that we should put a bunch of wire mesh in our pots. I think this is all dead horse material at this point. I personally like appropriate sized sifted particles of something porous like pumice, lava, perlite. I add a little bark for the deciduous. I can't afford Akadama right now but I'd suspect I'd like it about as much as I like pumice... maybe a little more because it's Japanese and expensive.
Ian

Japanese and expensive works every time, even if it doesn't you always know it should have.

 

[Poink88]

I will ask the soil science major a see what say thou.

Do tell him that we (I at least) are not using it all by itself. It is just part of a mix.

BTW, not all "professionals" know how theory applies (sometimes converts) in real world...so do not bank on his "soil science major" too much.

In my world...lots of design engineers (very smart people) have no idea or a clue how to build what they are designing. Throw them in the field and it is like watching a headless chicken run around. It is not even funny.

 

[Smoke]

Al started the roots growing through the particle thing with the bark piece above. I agree it looks cool but it's not very scientific to go from the picture to a conclusion. I could get roots to grow through wire mesh but it doesn't mean that we should put a bunch of wire mesh in our pots. I think this is all dead horse material at this point. I personally like appropriate sized sifted particles of something porous like pumice, lava, perlite. I add a little bark for the deciduous. I can't afford Akadama right now but I'd suspect I'd like it about as much as I like pumice... maybe a little more because it's Japanese and expensive.
Ian

I didn't offer a conclusion. I offered a picture of a wood particle and my conclusions of adsorption and added humates. That is where the roots go, to nutrients air and water, all contained in that wood particle.

 

[Poink88]

Btw most tropicals as in Hawaii will grow just about anywhere because of the humidity.

Not too sure about this either. Philippines is a tropical place and where there were volcanic activity, the plants seem to be much healthier than places that don't w/ in the same proximity. Same relative humidity.