Best soil for developing trees?

[Darth Tanuki]

I didn't call you any names I made fun of your screen name. As to the people you mentioned I have seen some of their trees, and met many. Not one of them has made a big deal out of claiming that a serious bonsai cannot be made without Akadama. As to trees in your back yard, I don't care if it works for you; only that something works for you.

I really don't care who sits back and thanks your for your response. Right now the world is being run by people who think we should run our lives according to what they think. So if everybody on this forum comes to the conclusion that I am nothing more than a curmudgeonly old fool, then so be it. At least I am honest and without some agenda other than bonsai.

So your reference to "World Famous Teacher whose students think he's God" was all innocence?

 

[Vance Wood]

So your reference to "World Famous Teacher whose students think he's God" was all innocence?

Is that calling you names? That's is not calling any one names. That is only forwarding something I have noticed around here for years about certain people that come along from time to time making great claims. Remember the old saying: With great claims comes the responsibility to provide great evidence.

So---where are the pictures? Surly you have to have some?

 

[Darth Tanuki]

Is that calling you names? That's is not calling any one names. That is only forwarding something I have noticed around here for years about certain people that come along from time to time making great claims. Remember the old saying: With great claims comes the responsibility to provide great evidence.

So---where are the pictures? Surly you have to have some?

So a general insult to select enthusiast's teachers is fine. And I'm the troll. See ya.

 

[Vance Wood]

So a general insult to select enthusiast's teachers is fine. And I'm the troll. See ya.

You're choice and spin on the subject, what do want me to say? I can't get you to expose your location or show us some pictures of your trees. I don't even care if they are world class like you seem to indicate can only be produced by using Akadama any way, I just want to see if you have any trees at all. Years ago we had an individual come around here boasting the same things you have been adhering to. In the end we found that he was the original source for the All Smoke No Fire Internet Bonsai Club. You should love to shut me up if you had the ammunition to do it-----I would love for you to shut me up just for the sake of bonsai. I did not insult your teacher either, I referred to your worship of him. I am certain your teacher would be unpleased that you have dragged him into something like this wherein your behavior puts his name and reputation in question.

 

[A Random User]

Not knocking akadama, or it's "miracle properties"...
But, there is a whole world out there doing some very amazing
Bonsai, most in places we have never heard of... and they cannot
Possibly all be using the stuff !!! If they were, there wouldn't be
A Japan... and we wouldn't have to worry about their amazing
Bonsai qualities...
Some of the most spectacular trees I have seen look to be potted
In the crapiest soil I have ever seen... but somehow it seems to be
Working???

 

[Vance Wood]

It works because trees are far more tolerant than we give them credit for. Our magic soil mixes seem to help them grow better but somehow; I think for the most part we make up these fancy soil mixes because they look good and make people think we know what we are doing. Sometimes with some trees it does really matter but it is surprising how many trees can exist and even flourish in some real dung heap pile of doodie siftings.

 

[amkhalid]

To all who enjoy spending hours arguing about soil or experimenting to find the magic blend... perhaps you should spend that time wiring your trees. The payout will be better.

 

[A Random User]

To all who enjoy spending hours arguing about soil or experimenting to find the magic blend... perhaps you should spend that time wiring your trees. The payout will be better.

Thanks for the advice...
I usually spend on a bad night 3 to 4 hours working on a tree, or multiple
Trees, another 3 to 4 hours working on my brush paintings, and
Still manage to argue and contribute to discussions here at B -Nut.
All this after working a 10 hour day...
So, I think I am doing fine, thank you.
Besides, if we were not arguing here, we would just be sitting in
Front of the TV arguing with it !!!

 

[Vance Wood]

To all who enjoy spending hours arguing about soil or experimenting to find the magic blend... perhaps you should spend that time wiring your trees. The payout will be better.

However when you consider that some of us still have our trees frozen into the ground as we speak, that is kind of a impossible criticism to make.

 

[Fangorn]

Just wanted to post a picture of a kashima maple I re-potted today that was growing in a wooden grow box. I know that it's been said in this thread that akadama will turn to mush in the colder climates, and I wanted to show that that's not necessarily true in all cases.
It's been in this soil for at least two years with no other protection then being in a place out of the wind and covered with some mulch, and snow when possible. You can see the akadama particles on the white paper and they are still quite firm, and in fact I re-used some of the soil in re-potting this tree.
This was double red line akadama and I can't guarantee that all brands are created equal, but just wanted to show that it breaking down in cold climates ain't necessarily so.

 

[Vance Wood]

Just wanted to post a picture of a kashima maple I re-potted today that was growing in a wooden grow box. I know that it's been said in this thread that akadama will turn to mush in the colder climates, and I wanted to show that that's not necessarily true in all cases.
It's been in this soil for at least two years with no other protection then being in a place out of the wind and covered with some mulch, and snow when possible. You can see the akadama particles on the white paper and they are still quite firm, and in fact I re-used some of the soil in re-potting this tree.
This was double red line akadama and I can't guarantee that all brands are created equal, but just wanted to show that it breaking down in cold climates ain't necessarily so.

I know the subject of Akadama can be an issue of love it or hate it. I try to come down on the side of honesty. I never believed it would mush up in two seasons, three or four maybe, but if it is breaking down this quickly for you I believe there could be something else going on like the over all mix is not draining well enough.

 

[GrimLore]

I know the subject of Akadama can be an issue of love it or hate it. I try to come down on the side of honesty. I never believed it would mush up in two seasons, three or four maybe, but if it is breaking down this quickly for you I believe there could be something else going on like the over all mix is not draining well enough.

Honest I have said this before and do not use it because there is a vast difference in the quality of Akadama and distributors will not volunteer the information I want. The same holds for Turface. I honestly believe they both work very well for a lot of people BUT I suspect they have "lucked" upon either deeply mined Akadama or high fired Turface. I believe when it fails it is of lesser quality but unfortunately cannot obtain the information needed to make a "smart" purchase.

Grimmy

 

[Fangorn]

I know the subject of Akadama can be an issue of love it or hate it. I try to come down on the side of honesty. I never believed it would mush up in two seasons, three or four maybe, but if it is breaking down this quickly for you I believe there could be something else going on like the over all mix is not draining well enough.

Vance, I wasn't calling you out in that post. I posted the picture to show that the Akadama hadn't hardly broken down at all, and was re-potting because the box was packed with roots (I had a heck of a time getting it out) and seemed to be drying out very quickly last summer.
I guess if I was calling anyone out in that post, it was the people who categorically state that you can't use Akadama at all in colder climates because it will break down.
I believe Grimmy hit the nail on the head with the post above. The Ryusen Red Ball Akadama I'm using this year doesn't seem to be as durable. Time will tell

 

[Vance Wood]

Vance, I wasn't calling you out in that post. I posted the picture to show that the Akadama hadn't hardly broken down at all, and was re-potting because the box was packed with roots (I had a heck of a time getting it out) and seemed to be drying out very quickly last summer.
I guess if I was calling anyone out in that post, it was the people who categorically state that you can't use Akadama at all in colder climates because it will break down.
I believe Grimmy hit the nail on the head with the post above. The Ryusen Red Ball Akadama I'm using this year doesn't seem to be as durable. Time will tell

I know; I tend to get pretty opinionated so it's easy to look at something from me automatically as something negative. The only thing negative I find about Akadama is the sales spiel that if you do not use Akadama you're not doing bonsai right, your trees will die and all your children will be born naked. I also don't believe it will break down after one winter. I believe it may be possible if you get a particularly bad batch but in general I think it is probably pretty stable. The price of Turface makes it financially a better deal if you do buy a bag of dog doo on occasion which is possible.

 

[fredman]

Goodness me this was tiring....... And all I wanted to know was a little bit more about soil for developing trees. Thanks for the info and the entertainment.......

 

[sorce]

Ignorance

If I had time to quote all the B.S....oh the joy!

Was the OP ever discussed?

Should I increase the amount of Akadama in a black pot by .14% over my white pot mix?

OR IS THAT OVERTHINKING IT?

(Meanwhile W.P. is training little German squirrels to water his trees, with gift peanuts grown in,.,,100% akadama, sitting back with a smile, knowing exactly what he will do next, and when, to a s load of trees......because he has time to think about s that actually matters!)


You can hear gods mix on 88.3fm in three places on earth. All over huge akadama deposits.

Barrackadama.

Very little pics for very big arguments.

I use satans mix! It is very high fired!

I have to go to work. Down the block,there is a fertilizer plant,human fecal matter. Sold to everywhere that grows your food. Unless you grow your own. Use akadama.


Sorce

 

[M. Frary]

What to do?
Take all of the arguing about what's supposed to be best, sift through what people use and then use what is available to you cheaply. Trees aren't all growing on fancy substrates.
This juniper is in Napa oil dri. Doing fine. Real fine. It's available,cheap and works great. For me. You might find something else that works for you.

 

[Mellow Mullet]

Mike is right, I scanned through the pages in this post and a lot of people actually posted what they use. Try some different combinations and see what you like. There is no "magic bullet", I use old ("used") bonsai soil (lava, pumice, turface, and fir bark) left over from repotting, amended with pine bark soil amendment available from Lowes. Works great for me.

I have been at this for a while and I have come to the conclusion that people are a lot more finicky about soil than the trees are. Pretty much anything that drains well and covers the roots will work, especially for "developing" trees.

John

 

[Paradox]

The current ABS journal has some articles about soil about soil components and some technical detail. Interesting reading.

 

[sorce]

Its not scientific.

Seeing as how. I finally let stuff grow this year.

But oil dry and home depot pine bark fines work real good for me.

Might ex the pine bark next year.

Most of my stuff is in see through containers. So....
Pics later!

Sorce