Help understanding the high cost of chinese elm?

[milehigh_7]

Cool projects but..

I just wonder .. How are you going to keep thousands of bonsai in shape so that in 25 years they are actually still bonsai, and not overgrown shrubs..

Goes back to my hours and hours of work thing... It always costs, not always cash but time is very much an investment. He's talking a full-time job for a team of *trained* people for as long as he wants it to be decent looking... massive investment.

 

[Woody Carverton]

Cool projects but..

I just wonder .. How are you going to keep thousands of bonsai in shape so that in 25 years they are actually still bonsai, and not overgrown shrubs..

Wife, daughter, and down the road when were open to the public, a small staff. We'll probably run a small gift shop / nursery where we sell stock, pots, ect. to cover the salary's of the staff.

 

[rockm]

Never, or probably never unless it's to a close friend or college and even then only 1 or 2. We have 20 acres we're trying to turn into a giant bonsai garden. So we will need thousands upon thousands of trees to get started. we have acquired hundreds of specimens and already styled bonsai but are also propagating a lot of our own for future refinement.

I thought so too. A good way to spend retirement, and also to invest in my daughters future. Being 3 now, imagine the number of impressive trees she will have in 25-30 years when she inherits it. Especially the trees that are already 50-100 years old we acquired with another 25-30 years on them.

You had better learn how to get after all those trees along the line. Simply plunking elms out in a field and waiting produces trunks and only trunks--trunks that will be mostly useless as bonsai if left untouched in that time.

Growing out bonsai requires timed pruning both top and bottom and an eye for what someone who's plunking down big money for a larger tree is looking for. The higher end bonsai produced by knowledgeable bonsai growers are worth vastly more than trees simply ground-grown. You probably know this, but it's worth pointing out.

FWIW, there are some terrific bonsaiists already doing what you're planning and are Japanese-trained...your competition in a few years will be stiff.

 

[LanceMac10]

Never, or probably never unless it's to a close friend or college and even then only 1 or 2. We have 20 acres we're trying to turn into a giant bonsai garden. So we will need thousands upon thousands of trees to get started. we have acquired hundreds of specimens and already styled bonsai but are also propagating a lot of our own for future refinement.

What do you plan to grow in "New England"?

 

[PeaceLoveBonsai]

Never, or probably never unless it's to a close friend or college and even then only 1 or 2. We have 20 acres we're trying to turn into a giant bonsai garden. So we will need thousands upon thousands of trees to get started. we have acquired hundreds of specimens and already styled bonsai but are also propagating a lot of our own for future refinement.

This project seems....

ill-conceived. Or at least uninformed. I'm curious, how much Bonsai experience do you have? If you are so inclined, would you provide some background as to your plans? I have so many questions.

 

[Woody Carverton]

You had better learn how to get after all those trees along the line. Simply plunking elms out in a field and waiting produces trunks and only trunks--trunks that will be mostly useless as bonsai if left untouched in that time.

Growing out bonsai requires timed pruning both top and bottom and an eye for what someone who's plunking down big money for a larger tree is looking for. The higher end bonsai produced by knowledgeable bonsai growers are worth vastly more than trees simply ground-grown. You probably know this, but it's worth pointing out.

FWIW, there are some terrific bonsaiists already doing what you're planning and are Japanese-trained...your competition in a few years will be stiff.

I have a horticulture degree from Oregon State. I also have 4 summers in Japan from my youth each 4 month period with different artists and now 5.5 full time years experience styling and maintaining trees on my own on top of my 15 or so years dabbling on my free time when I was the average working stiff. As for "plunking" down trees. Most of them need 5-20 years form seedling or cutting to become worthy of being bonsai material then another 20 or so years of refinement to become masterpieces. As for competition, that is not what this is about. Sure we'll probably at some point have a gift shop to cover operating expenses but were not, nor will we ever be a tree "farm" for selling to the greater bonsai community. Instead, we will be a place where enthusiasts can come spend an afternoon with trees, relax, get inspiration, and eventually come see demonstrations a decade from now when we are ready for that.

All of which has nothing to do with the reasoning behind inflated price of Chinese Elm I was inquiring about, but since you took the time to write, I figured I could at least have the decency to reply.

 

[Woody Carverton]

What do you plan to grow in "New England"?

Lots. We are starting with a few species and focusing on those, but over time I am sure we will end up with most everything that is hardy in our region.

 

[Woody Carverton]

This project seems....

ill-conceived. Or at least uninformed. I'm curious, how much Bonsai experience do you have? If you are so inclined, would you provide some background as to your plans? I have so many questions.

This reply seems.....


Just kidding. You can draw what conclusions you want from what little info I have shared, but to say the least this project has been 20+ years in the making, planning, researching, and financing. We have been saving for 2 decades for when I could retire and start this garden. There really is no aspect of this project that hasn't been thought out, then rethought, then mulled over a few dozen more times over the past decades.

As for experience, I already posted that 2 posts up.

Background to our plans? Sure

Phase 1: Clearing 20 acres of land, then doing all the site work for the garden (mostly done)

Phase 2: Tree acquisition, propagation, and ongoing maintenance

Phase 3: Exhibit layouts, trail building, well drilling, pond building, designing all areas of the garden, building all the buildings we are going to needs. etc etc.

Phase 4: Soft opening to the general public

Phase 5: Hiring a few full time staff for maintenance, further tree acquisition, further hiring as income permits, as we will be going out of pocket for the first few years for salaries for staff.

Phase 6: A decade or more from now, grand opening

 

[Woody Carverton]

Anyways, thanks for the info on the Chinese Elm inflation.

Wasn't anticipating this thread to derail and go so far off topic. If you guys are really that interested in our garden project maybe I'll start a thread in the spring when there is more to share, besides pictures of 20 acres of snow covered earth and dormant trees / shrubs.

 

[PeaceLoveBonsai]

Anyways, thanks for the info on the Chinese Elm inflation.

Wasn't anticipating this thread to derail and go so far off topic. If you guys are really that interested in our garden project maybe I'll start a thread in the spring when there is more to share, besides pictures of 20 acres of snow covered earth and dormant trees / shrubs.

I appreciate the response and good luck on your project. I am interested in updates, so do please start a thread. There are many smart bonsai folks (present author excluded) on this site that can help you, for sure.

My day job involves money and finance so that side of Bonsai always interests me...and makes me a natural skeptic. But I'd love to be proven wrong!

Once again, good luck, especially w/ phase 3 & 5.

Happy Bonsai!

 

[Woody Carverton]

My day job involves money and finance so that side of Bonsai always interests me...and makes me a natural skeptic. But I'd love to be proven wrong!

If I die, and it ended up being nothing more than a half-million dollar money pit full of beautiful trees then I die a happy man leaving my daughter with a ton of trees to sell off. I'm already retired, so luckily it doesn't have to pay the bills, but if it can support itself by the time my daughter takes over more than two decades from now, and she continues to run it, then its all the better.

 

[rockm]

I have a horticulture degree from Oregon State. I also have 4 summers in Japan from my youth each 4 month period with different artists and now 5.5 full time years experience styling and maintaining trees on my own on top of my 15 or so years dabbling on my free time when I was the average working stiff. As for "plunking" down trees. Most of them need 5-20 years form seedling or cutting to become worthy of being bonsai material then another 20 or so years of refinement to become masterpieces. As for competition, that is not what this is about. Sure we'll probably at some point have a gift shop to cover operating expenses but were not, nor will we ever be a tree "farm" for selling to the greater bonsai community. Instead, we will be a place where enthusiasts can come spend an afternoon with trees, relax, get inspiration, and eventually come see demonstrations a decade from now when we are ready for that.

All of which has nothing to do with the reasoning behind inflated price of Chinese Elm I was inquiring about, but since you took the time to write, I figured I could at least have the decency to reply.

Well, OK, but it kind of does get at your question of why Chinese elms are so expensive for another reason.

Nicely done OLD Chinese elms are vastly expensive (and not common) because of the time an effort that is put into them.

I'm sure the reputable businesses selling Chinese elm seedling to help support their businesses will love your idea... Just sayin'