How to check soil for watering

William Dinitzen

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How much you guys check if the soil needs watering on this spil type? Its almost too grainy for me to stick a finger into and feel half an inch down.

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Do you keep this tree inside your house?
It should be outside.

Some people use a chop stick to check the moisture level.
 
 
Yeah i just took it inside to check on it, only my Elm is kept inside for winter:) ill try the chopstick method.
It will be too warm inside your house during the winter to keep an elm. Elms need dormancy which happens below 40 degrees and need to stay about that cold for a few months.

You need to find a place outside where it will be protected from wind. You can bury the pot along the foundation of your house, preferably north or east side if you have that ability
 
It will be too warm inside your house during the winter to keep an elm. Elms need dormancy which happens below 40 degrees and need to stay about that cold for a few months.

You need to find a place outside where it will be protected from wind. You can bury the pot along the foundation of your house, preferably north or east side if you have that ability
From everything ive read, you can with no problems keep chinese elm inside for winter as they do not require a winter dormancy. Im not sure which opinion to trust here.

Edit: looked more into it, i guess it doesnt require dormancy but long term it will have issues of it doesnt go dormant, is that correct? Anyways i put them back out int the greenhouse where they will both go dormant at some point hopefully 🙂

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Usually watering frequency is based on leaf mass. For trees with no leaf at all after all, I tend to water weekly if they are in deeper and bigger pots for development. For trees in shallow bonsai pots, I water every 3-4 days if there is no leaf at all. For tropical trees that have leaves year round, I will water every other day during winter when they are inside.
Regarding elm being inside, it's really not my preference. The biggest problem is air circulation when keeping trees in door or in a greenhouse.
 
From everything ive read, you can with no problems keep chinese elm inside for winter as they do not require a winter dormancy. Im not sure which opinion to trust here.

Edit: looked more into it, i guess it doesnt require dormancy but long term it will have issues of it doesnt go dormant, is that correct? Anyways i put them back out int the greenhouse where they will both go dormant at some point hopefully 🙂
View attachment 512896

Chinese elm requires dormancy. A long period without it kills the tree. The people who sell them sometimes lie about that requirement to get your money. They can limp along inside for a few years, but they mostly die. The seller then gets a return customer who buys another...see how that works?

Why are these in a greenhouse outside? Can't really tell what species they are. If they're tropical species--(BTW--Chinese elm is not tropical) they should be inside if you're getting frost and should remain inside for the winter. If they're temperate zone species--maple, pine, elm, the greenhouse is complicating the dormancy process. Early frost and shallow freezes in autumn make trees "harden off" roots and top growth in preparation for winter. Enclosing them in a greenhouse doesn't allow that to happen and sets them up for winter kill on roots and branches.
Also hopefully, this isn't your winter storage facility?
 
View attachment 512896

Chinese elm requires dormancy. A long period without it kills the tree. The people who sell them sometimes lie about that requirement to get your money. They can limp along inside for a few years, but they mostly die. The seller then gets a return customer who buys another...see how that works?

Why are these in a greenhouse outside? Can't really tell what species they are. If they're tropical species--(BTW--Chinese elm is not tropical) they should be inside if you're getting frost and should remain inside for the winter. If they're temperate zone species--maple, pine, elm, the greenhouse is complicating the dormancy process. Early frost and shallow freezes in autumn make trees "harden off" roots and top growth in preparation for winter. Enclosing them in a greenhouse doesn't allow that to happen and sets them up for winter kill on roots and branches.
Also hopefully, this isn't your winter storage facility?
Hi, the two trees are a shin deshojo and a Chinese elm, the reason in keeping them in the greenhouse is that it rains sometimes for weeks without a break in Denmark, so it just leads to terrible overwatering if i keep the trees outside in autumn and winter. But if you notice there is about a 30x40 opening in the bottom of the greenhouse for airflow which helps lower the temperature. Would this still be an issue? How else would you store them in winter?
 
Hi, the two trees are a shin deshojo and a Chinese elm, the reason in keeping them in the greenhouse is that it rains sometimes for weeks without a break in Denmark, so it just leads to terrible overwatering if i keep the trees outside in autumn and winter. But if you notice there is about a 30x40 opening in the bottom of the greenhouse for airflow which helps lower the temperature. Would this still be an issue? How else would you store them in winter?
First, outside weather is NOT a problem for temperate zone trees. Rain isn't a problem--drainage is the problem for trees in containers. That means when it rains for two or three days you can prop one edge of the pot up on a brick, so the pot slants to one side. That will increase runoff. Other than that quit worrying. Trees have been rained on for a very long, long, long time.

Yes the greenhouse covering is a problem even if it has one end open to air. It promotes mold, wet conditions and general unhealthy plants. Temperate bonsai require a lot of air circulation, as in breezes and actual WIND. That keeps them from developing all manner of bacterial and fungal problems. Get them out from under that cover. They don't need it, it's potentially a problem.

As for winter storage, I simply mulch my temperate maples, elms, oak, bald cypress into garden beds cover them in their pots with five to six inches of shredded hardwood mulch. I make sure the pots have drainage space underneath before I bury the pots. I'm in USDA Zone 7--which has -17 to -15 C average minimal temperature. Denmark appears to be a bit warmer than here, but I'm not sure. If it is or even equal to what I have, your trees, including the elm, will be fine with similar treatment.

BTW the open bottom doesn't allow cooling. It actually encourages heating, since warm air rises, cold air sinks. So you're trapping hotter moister air for the plants. Warmer moist environments are hothouses for all kinds of problems.
 
First, outside weather is NOT a problem for temperate zone trees. Rain isn't a problem--drainage is the problem for trees in containers. That means when it rains for two or three days you can prop one edge of the pot up on a brick, so the pot slants to one side. That will increase runoff. Other than that quit worrying. Trees have been rained on for a very long, long, long time.

Yes the greenhouse covering is a problem even if it has one end open to air. It promotes mold, wet conditions and general unhealthy plants. Temperate bonsai require a lot of air circulation, as in breezes and actual WIND. That keeps them from developing all manner of bacterial and fungal problems. Get them out from under that cover. They don't need it, it's potentially a problem.

As for winter storage, I simply mulch my temperate maples, elms, oak, bald cypress into garden beds cover them in their pots with five to six inches of shredded hardwood mulch. I make sure the pots have drainage space underneath before I bury the pots. I'm in USDA Zone 7--which has -17 to -15 C average minimal temperature. Denmark appears to be a bit warmer than here, but I'm not sure. If it is or even equal to what I have, your trees, including the elm, will be fine with similar treatment.

BTW the open bottom doesn't allow cooling. It actually encourages heating, since warm air rises, cold air sinks. So you're trapping hotter moister air for the plants. Warmer moist environments are hothouses for all kinds of problems.
Thank you for taking the time write out this response man! Thats alot i was messing up i guess😅 I put them out on a bench in open air and wind. If we get a very cold winter it might go below -10C but rarely it goes past like -5C, would you still recommend covering in mulch?

Edit: in recent times we often barely get any frost in winter.
 
Rain isn't a problem--drainage is the problem for trees in containers. That means when it rains for two or three days you can prop one edge of the pot up on a brick, so the pot slants to one side. That will increase runoff.
I am not sure about this. The OP said it sometimes rains for weeks nonstop which means the soil will stay saturated no matter what you do. I understand propping one side up will increase the vertical column but the soil inside is still saturated unless the rain stops for a day or 2. I have had that kind of weather back in China in the spring and it literally rains for 2 weeks without stopping for a second. Granted it was very light rain. But still enough to keep the soil saturated. It is the equivalent of soaking the roots in water for 2 weeks.
 
I am not sure about this. The OP said it sometimes rains for weeks nonstop which means the soil will stay saturated no matter what you do. I understand propping one side up will increase the vertical column but the soil inside is still saturated unless the rain stops for a day or 2. I have had that kind of weather back in China in the spring and it literally rains for 2 weeks without stopping for a second. Granted it was very light rain. But still enough to keep the soil saturated. It is the equivalent of soaking the roots in water for 2 weeks.
To be fair that was probably a bit of an overexageration by me, we might occasionally have a day or two with no or very light rain, but on average it rains about every day or two in autumn in Denmark.
 
I am not sure about this. The OP said it sometimes rains for weeks nonstop which means the soil will stay saturated no matter what you do. I understand propping one side up will increase the vertical column but the soil inside is still saturated unless the rain stops for a day or 2. I have had that kind of weather back in China in the spring and it literally rains for 2 weeks without stopping for a second. Granted it was very light rain. But still enough to keep the soil saturated. It is the equivalent of soaking the roots in water for 2 weeks.
I find it hard to believe it rains "weeks at a time" in Denmark😁. The info I've come up with indicates Denmark gets about 746 mm, or about 29 inches, of precipitation a year...Alabama gets 1,480, or about 58 inches, or precipitation per year. Hell, here in Virginia we average 1,125 mm, or 44 inches per year...(although we're in a drought at the moment) I take that "weeks at a time" thing as mostly cloudy days and hyperbole 😁 . If anything his trees may not be getting ENOUGH rain...
 
Thank you for taking the time write out this response man! Thats alot i was messing up i guess😅 I put them out on a bench in open air and wind. If we get a very cold winter it might go below -10C but rarely it goes past like -5C, would you still recommend covering in mulch?

Edit: in recent times we often barely get any frost in winter.
No problem. Everyone makes mistakes in their first years in bonsai. Thing to keep in mind is that bonsai are the same trees as those around you in the ground for the most part. Mostly, they're as tough as those in ground trees and resent being coddled like hothouse roses. Pampering kills them. Open air, wind and hopefully some frost and a shallow freeze that hovers near 0 C a few nights in a row, then into the garden bed under mulch to winter--

Even though you're in a bit warmer climate zone than me, I would still use mulch protection. It can not only keep the worst cold off the trees' roots, but it can also keep those same roots colder when you get late winter warms ups that can stimulate growth (Which you don't want happening until after the danger of freezing has mostly passed.

This is worth watching

This is worth reading
 
I am not sure about this. The OP said it sometimes rains for weeks nonstop which means the soil will stay saturated no matter what you do. I understand propping one side up will increase the vertical column but the soil inside is still saturated unless the rain stops for a day or 2. I have had that kind of weather back in China in the spring and it literally rains for 2 weeks without stopping for a second. Granted it was very light rain. But still enough to keep the soil saturated. It is the equivalent of soaking the roots in water for 2 weeks.

The type of soil you keep your trees in will dictate how well they withstand heavy/long periods of rain.

I use an open soil mix that drains very well. I've had it rain every day for a week straight. Never had a problem.

I've also submerged my BRT and Ficus in shallow trays inside when I went away for a week in the winter. Trees never had any issues with this.
 
No problem. Everyone makes mistakes in their first years in bonsai. Thing to keep in mind is that bonsai are the same trees as those around you in the ground for the most part. Mostly, they're as tough as those in ground trees and resent being coddled like hothouse roses. Pampering kills them. Open air, wind and hopefully some frost and a shallow freeze that hovers near 0 C a few nights in a row, then into the garden bed under mulch to winter--

Even though you're in a bit warmer climate zone than me, I would still use mulch protection. It can not only keep the worst cold off the trees' roots, but it can also keep those same roots colder when you get late winter warms ups that can stimulate growth (Which you don't want happening until after the danger of freezing has mostly passed.

This is worth watching

This is worth reading
Thank you for the links, just went through both, and was very educational. From what I understand from your messages, it wouldn't hurt to cover them in mulch, even though we might have another winter with limited frost. Im thinking this is something I prepare come late November/early December when temperatures start occasionally dropping below 0C at night, would this be a fine time to do it?
 
Thank you for the links, just went through both, and was very educational. From what I understand from your messages, it wouldn't hurt to cover them in mulch, even though we might have another winter with limited frost. Im thinking this is something I prepare come late November/early December when temperatures start occasionally dropping below 0C at night, would this be a fine time to do it?
I leave all my trees out until our Thanksgiving Holiday (Nov. 23). I typically get a dozen frosts and a few hard freezes by then. I put everything into storage on that holiday weekend or the one after. You might think about that time too--late Nov./early Dec.

Our issue here for the last several years has been extreme cold early in November, then a relatively mild winter. The early cold has gotten down to low 20's (-6 C) or even a bit lower. That's a problem for so early in the winter. In Jan. or Feb. it's not an issue. If temperatures are forecast to go that low prior to having trees in storage, I simply bring them inside the house for a couple of days. That doesn't affect them as long as it's only few days.
 
I leave all my trees out until our Thanksgiving Holiday (Nov. 23). I typically get a dozen frosts and a few hard freezes by then. I put everything into storage on that holiday weekend or the one after. You might think about that time too--late Nov./early Dec.

Our issue here for the last several years has been extreme cold early in November, then a relatively mild winter. The early cold has gotten down to low 20's (-6 C) or even a bit lower. That's a problem for so early in the winter. In Jan. or Feb. it's not an issue. If temperatures are forecast to go that low prior to having trees in storage, I simply bring them inside the house for a couple of days. That doesn't affect them as long as it's only few days.
Alright, luckily for me Denmark is surrounded by sea to all directions so the weather is a lot more predictable here. So I think early December will be just fine :) Once in the mulch, and hopefully the tree is dormant at this point, how often do you check the soil? Or will watering be unnecessary at this point?

Edit: winters in Denmark are more rainy than they are snowy
 
Alright, luckily for me Denmark is surrounded by sea to all directions so the weather is a lot more predictable here. So I think early December will be just fine :) Once in the mulch, and hopefully the tree is dormant at this point, how often do you check the soil? Or will watering be unnecessary at this point?

Edit: winters in Denmark are more rainy than they are snowy
An important point is to water your trees well before putting them under the mulch. Then water the mulch as you add it. Dry mulch will pull moisture from the soil in the pots. Also make sure there is space under the pot before mulching--I put my pots on bricks to keep the bottom surface off of the ground. Once all that is done, I rarely water anything. The mulch pile stays moist from rain and winter precip. Snow is excellent. Don't worry about it. You can check the mulch every so often by digging down into it to the pots to see if it's moist, then cover things back up. Below are some of my trees in mid-winter a few years ago.
 

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