I chopped a large JBP, and have a question for experienced "choppers"...

Adair M

Adair M

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I stopped by the bonsai shop the other day, and found some JBP that the owner had bought for Japanese Gardens. I saw great taper at the base of one, saw it had some small branches down low, and went for it. It was about 7 or 8 feet tall, and I chopped it to about a foot. I left a stub of about 4 inches above where I want to make the eventual chop. And I left a long branch that will be entirely cut off.

The questions:

How long should I wait (if at all) until I reduce the chop stub down to where I want it?

Should I go ahead and remove the long branch now, so the tree will direct all it's energy to the new apex? The plan is to let the new apex grow out.

Comments: I removed about 90% of the total foliage of the tree when I did the chop. I haven't touched the roots. You can see the tree has been uppotted several times during it's time in the nursery, I'll have to work to get rid of circling roots.

Also, this tree appears to bud back prolificly! I will be growing the primary branches from little one inch twigs. Lots to choose from.

IMG_0429 (640x478).jpgIMG_0430 (640x478).jpgIMG_0431 (640x478).jpgIMG_0432 (640x478).jpg
 
good find!!!

cant comment on chop, how close is nearest branch?

i'm more concerned about root condition and soil in pot. is it in decent soil? how root bound is it? is putting it in ground an option?

hard to tell from pics regarding styling but i like long branch for cascade/semi or "hanger" branch or even next trunk segment

looking forward to hear from resident experts re: chop/scar management and or root work/balancing at this point in season.
 
Last edited:
Looks like you got a great trunk there, and a healthy tree, good score.

To answer our questions:

I'd wait to reduce it until winter, less sap flow, and if you happen to get a bud somewhere that could become the next section of trunk, it will be this year.

Leave the long branch for now, but strip most of the needles off it, leaving only about 12 pairs around each developing candle, and a few of the pairs closest to the trunk...the middle portion should be bare. This will do two things:

1. Allow light to get into the trunk area to encourage some back budding..
2. Possibly induce some new buds to develop among those few pairs of needles you leave close to the trunk.

Also, leaving that long branch with a few buds will provide you with something to use as grafting scions if you need to place a few buds somewhere next spring, while retaining some strength this year.

I wouldn't try to repot it this year, and depending on the soil condition, might even get maximum growth on the top next year, and look at root work in 2014.
 
Thanks, Smoke for the point towards your thread. That was (is) quite the project!

The roots on this one are going to be a project. Under the dead pine needles, you can see where it had been in a smaller pot, and circled it, then it was uppotted into this large nursery pot. It is in the typical nurseryman's potting soil. High organics. Maybe next spring I will reduce the depth of the roots by 1/2 and move to a flatter grow "pot", like a masonry utility tub.

Brian, good thought about keeping the long branch on for grafting scions! I hadn't thought about that. The first internode on that long branch is about 6 inches out. Too far in my opinion to use as the trunk extension. But there are lots of little twigs (mini-branches?) already started right at the base of the long branch. That was one reason I was thinking of removing it, to get more sun to them. Tomorrow, I'll go out and take a closeup photo. The long branch is very vigorous. It has about 5 terminal candles, just beginning to move. The middle one is fatter than a pencil. More like a Sharpie! I want to direct that energy to the new trunk extension I have picked out so it will gain girth. I don't need the long branch to fatten the trunk, it's already fat enough. The new apex could use some girth.

I already have an apex (trunk continuation) in mind. On the second photo, it's the upward growth on the left. On that same photo, there's a mass of greenery on the right. There's a nice 6 inch branch there, with about 6 internodes between the trunk and the terminal, that COULD become a first branch. It's flexible enough to wire down. But there are also 6 to 8 two inch long mini-branches growing right there, too. Any of those could be grown out into a branch.

Biglou, I chopped it about 4 inches above where where the first branch will be. There is already a fairly verticle branch growing there to become the new trunk. It's going to have a big scar. It will take years if not decades to heal over. The strategy is to hide it in foliage.

Guys, I appreciate the comments! I'll take some closeup photos so you can see all the little twigs on the trunk.
 
Adair M said:
Thanks, Smoke for the point towards your thread. That was (is) quite the project!

The roots on this one are going to be a project. Under the dead pine needles, you can see where it had been in a smaller pot, and circled it, then it was uppotted into this large nursery pot. It is in the typical nurseryman's potting soil. High organics. Maybe next spring I will reduce the depth of the roots by 1/2 and move to a flatter grow "pot", like a masonry utility tub.

Brian, good thought about keeping the long branch on for grafting scions! I hadn't thought about that. The first internode on that long branch is about 6 inches out. Too far in my opinion to use as the trunk extension. But there are lots of little twigs (mini-branches?) already started right at the base of the long branch. That was one reason I was thinking of removing it, to get more sun to them. Tomorrow, I'll go out and take a closeup photo. The long branch is very vigorous. It has about 5 terminal candles, just beginning to move. The middle one is fatter than a pencil. More like a Sharpie! I want to direct that energy to the new trunk extension I have picked out so it will gain girth. I don't need the long branch to fatten the trunk, it's already fat enough. The new apex could use some girth.

I already have an apex (trunk continuation) in mind. On the second photo, it's the upward growth on the left. On that same photo, there's a mass of greenery on the right. There's a nice 6 inch branch there, with about 6 internodes between the trunk and the terminal, that COULD become a first branch. It's flexible enough to wire down. But there are also 6 to 8 two inch long mini-branches growing right there, too. Any of those could be grown out into a branch.

Biglou, I chopped it about 4 inches above where where the first branch will be. There is already a fairly verticle branch growing there to become the new trunk. It's going to have a big scar. It will take years if not decades to heal over. The strategy is to hide it in foliage.

Guys, I appreciate the comments! I'll take some closeup photos so you can see all the little twigs on the trunk.
Click to expand...


Hello, I just had 3 of these dropped in my lap in the fall, and am curious how this went for you and any hints/suggestions on where to go. I have not chopped them or really done anything, but was thinking of repotting them all first, and then chop next winter. Anyway, I tried the thread the Smoke suggested, but came up error. But gonna still look around.
Happy New Year!!!
 
Wow, old thread... but not that old. Interesting to see how people wrote back then!
 
Takes a trained Fine Artist [ Atelier ] 3 to 5 years after learning the techniques to clear the
head and think as an individual. Which is why it is suggested they go somewhere alone
and live for a while.
[ Old practice since Leonardo days ]

Drawing / Painting are immediate practices with immediate results.

Bonsai is very much longer to experience and form individual opinions/ideas.
Probably 15 to 20 years or more.

You can teach technique, but the individual grows at a different rate.

One wonders about all these students coming out of Japan?
Good Day
Anthony
 
Anthony said:
Takes a trained Fine Artist [ Atelier ] 3 to 5 years after learning the techniques to clear the
head and think as an individual. Which is why it is suggested they go somewhere alone
and live for a while.
[ Old practice since Leonardo days ]

Drawing / Painting are immediate practices with immediate results.

Bonsai is very much longer to experience and form individual opinions/ideas.
Probably 15 to 20 years or more.

You can teach technique, but the individual grows at a different rate.

One wonders about all these students coming out of Japan?
Good Day
Anthony
Click to expand...
What are you wondering about them, Anthony? I know just about all of them - at least those coming back to the US.

They’re all trying to make a living teaching and making bonsai. Each will have to find a niche that works for them. Either varieties of trees, or location, or willingness to travel... it’s tough for them to get started.

The best at building a business plan for when his apprenticeship was over was Bjorn. He started his “Bonsai Art of Japan” YouTube series while he was still in Japan. So, he was “Famous” even while he was still a student! (It doesn’t hurt he was also getting a degree in International Business at the same time!)

Ryan was able to leverage his apprenticeship with Kimora into being well known and in demand when he returned.

So... most of the guys have to find a group of clients that they can depend on to hire them year after year. It’s the same in Japan. They either go to the client’s garden and work on trees, or the client brings trees to the Master’s garden for work. Often, the client keeps his trees at the Master’s garden full time, and brings them home for special occasions or to shows.

Here in the US, the local clubs bring in experts for a weekend. They will generally do a demonstration and/or critique of club member’s trees, and do a day of workshops. Sometimes they might come in a day or two early to do a private session at someone’s home. That’s how they build a clientele.

Depending upon their circumstances, they may offer classes at their home gardens as well. Boon, Ryan, Hagedorn, and Valavanis do. Probably some others, too.

Some put more of an emphasis on teaching, some on sales. Each has to balance it out so they have a sustainable business.

Will these guys produce “art”? Well, if they produce stuff that doesn’t find an audience, they won’t be in business very long.
 
Dav4 said:
I can't help but think of all the beer and wine @Adair M has consumed since starting this thread.
Click to expand...
And thinking about it, I started that thread before I had two surgeries for cancer, and my kidney doctor and urologist instructed me to “drink more water”!
 
Adair M said:
And thinking about it, I started that thread before I had two surgeries for cancer, and my kidney doctor and urologist instructed me to “drink more water”!
Click to expand...
My first response was going to be " That was back when Adair had 2 kidneys "... then I though better of it:D.

Here's to you drinking lots of beer and wine for decades to come!
 
Marie1uk said:
@Adair M Did the tree survive it's surgery? What became of it?
Click to expand...
I was not happy about the bulge that had formed where all the branches attach to the trunk.

The nebari was coming along nicely. But that bulge, ugh!

So, I air layered it off. The bulge became the base for a Zelkova clump planting. I’m still letting that grow out.

So, after removing the airlayer, I cleaned up the chop, figured I would just start over making branches.

It never popped the first bud!:(

I don’t know why.

So, I asked Boon. He said, “Sometimes they don’t bud out” after a trunk chop.
 
“ The circle is now complete. When I left you, I was but the learner, now I am the master. “
-Darth Vader
 
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