Kishu Shimpaku from Evergreen Gardenworks

Darth Masiah

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i ordered this guy to take cuttings from. didn't seem to mind being shipped cross country.
8/28/20
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3/10/21
now that it's had some time to sit, i went ahead and repotted it. i wasn't about to look at this boring tree for years on end while i take cuttings, so i decided to try using copper wire for the first time. interesting stuff. i think i like it.

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butlern

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How is this tree doing?

respond to the repot and bends ok?
 

Darth Masiah

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How is this tree doing?
respond to the repot and bends ok?
it didn't like the work at all. major die back. it's not completely dead yet, but we'll see. interestingly, i was listening to the Bonsai Wire podcast and Jonas said he lost a lot of kishu he tried repotting this spring. seems these guys are a little finicky, so a repot with no other work in fall or winter will probably be best. wiring in the fall is also probably safest.
 

butlern

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Ah, that sucks.

Hope it pulls all the way through.

Also, I think that looks more like Itoigawa (long thin runners) than Kishu (which tends to clump like broccoli)

But if Brent said it's Kishu, I would take his word. He knows for sure!
 

Darth Masiah

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Also, I think that looks more like Itoigawa (long thin runners) than Kishu (which tends to clump like broccoli)

But if Brent said it's Kishu, I would take his word. He knows for sure!
you made me go back and check out Brian's article
 

River's Edge

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Also, I think that looks more like Itoigawa (long thin runners) than Kishu (which tends to clump like broccoli)
Growth pattern can be heavily affected by many factors, water, nutrients, sun, stress etc. The tree looks like Kishu to me and I have a lot of Kishu in my nursery.
It is easier to be sure when you can view variety's in person and side by side.
 
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In my case Kishu is growing here like a weed. Its located dead center on my backyard under 106 degrees. Maybe it really depends on environment and maybe that specifuc kishu is weak or something.
 

Darth Masiah

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Maybe it really depends on environment and maybe that specifuc kishu is weak or something.
oh definitely. in my limited experience, the repotting took way too long. i killed too many roots. usually on my other junipers a little slipped bark on the branch when wiring won't kill the whole branch.
 

ShimpakuBonsai

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Also, I think that looks more like Itoigawa (long thin runners) than Kishu (which tends to clump like broccoli)

Itoigawa has more light green and spiky foliage.
It looks like the Kishu I have in my garden so I would not doubt about the species.
 

Japonicus

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so i decided to try using copper wire for the first time. interesting stuff. i think i like it.
Works best and has good staying power. At least how you coiled the wire on the upper leader.
Lower down on the trunk in such close coils still better than aluminum but it becomes springy with much less holding power.
You will get more bang for your buck using less copper if you used a larger size or doubled and coil at 60º
or more similar to the upper leader wiring you did, plus it's less stressful on the branch/foliage to have less coils,
and less spring to have to overcome. Hope it pulls through for ya.
 

Eric Schrader

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So, did you succeed in making cuttings also?
BTW, guessing that major bends in spring is your problem. Although the wrapping may have helped, in early spring large bends on kishu can cause the cambium to separate form the wood pretty easily.
Do the repotting in spring, then wait until late summer, like now (August) to do bends, or even better in fall.
 

leatherback

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:(

I saw the first post in this thread and though.. Oh no.. What has he done!
Then I continued reading and saw my concern confirmed.

In general, bare-rooting junipers is tricky.
In general, repotting and serious wiring is tricky
In general, the first times using copper is stressfull on the tree

Bare-root repotting, and first time wiring with copper putting big bends.. Bad idea. It is not the species. It is the actions done. Lesson learned?

look who's talking!?
"I know i just got it as balled fieldplant in winter. It has only been in the pot for a few months after deep frost. But one quick loose wire to bring the main trunk in shape won't kill it"
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Darth Masiah

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when i removed the wire on 8/1/21 i almost cut off a thick shoot, so i just finish the job and took some cuttings. the brown wood i cut through seemed older than a year.
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8/15/21
after two weeks
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one's dead already. so i took some more.

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not sure the best place to cut. i usually slice though node points. this shoot was just starting to brown at the base.

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Eric Schrader

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One of the most important things in determining cutting success in these junipers is the health of the parent plant. I've done cuttings from hundreds of different plants, and if you get all the aftercare and everything else right, the percentages always reflect how vigorous the parent was at the time the cuttings were taken.

Hence, taking cuttings after a tough repotting and when you start seeing dieback is not going to yield the kind of success that you might hope for.

The size of your cuttings looks about right.
A finer, more water-retentive substrate would yield higher percentage success. Coarse bonsai soil is not ideal. I use perlite and coco coir, but even just potting soil works fine.
Keep out of direct sunlight in a shaded place for at least 6 weeks.
August is not an ideal time, I've seen 20% take in August while 90% from the same plant and same technique might take in October. Your location and weather will affect this though, as I'm doing the aftercare either outside in San Francisco, or in a greenhouse in San Francisco.
I don't see any mention or evidence of rooting hormone - while you can get some success without, you get more and more reliable rooting with an 8,000ppm powder or similar, I use Hormex #8, but soaking in a DipN'Grow solution or CLonex or many others will work fine.
Sanitize all materials to avoid transmitting surface pathogens from parent plant to propagated plant - I dip in ZeroTol.

Good luck!

E.
 

Darth Masiah

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Good luck!

E.
thanks for the tips. i use clonex gel for cuttings. i do need to get some more perlite, though. i was using a high % of sand for cuttinngs. i only have to water about once a week. i hate dirty potting soil 😁
 
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