New Trident

[fredman]

That's why I said if it was mine. All over the net people are pulling down Trident branches because its "easier" and "faster" it seems. I suppose they are doing it because almost all the info they see from the masters are inclined to go "pine".
If there were more tree bonsai masters, and less artistic bonsai masters, there will be more natural looking deciduous trees out there (and with that the info on how to get that tree looking natural).

Don't get me wrong I appreciate a well built artistic tree, but from a tree perspective I always see a sad tree. Its dressed up into something it would never have been, if it had the choice. I believe in staying true to the tree no matter what. Ones artistic desires should never interfere with the natural growth habits of a tree. That is true natural bonsai to me. I think there is a definite difference between growing trees and growing bonsai....

 

[Smoke]

Thats why I wrote this last Spring

...and this on my blog

 

[fredman]

Yeah that is what I like to see. Info like that for specifically maples aren't that abundantly available. That's why there isn't that much natural trees out there. Natural shaping is a much slower path than shaping a trunk and creating the "green helmet" look, but in the end the result is a national treasure....!
The problem is it will be in someone else's lifetime. Maybe that is why we choose to go the faster route and produce trees that looks good in the shorter term.

 

[Smoke]

Yeah that is what I like to see. Info like that for specifically maples aren't that abundantly available. That's why there isn't that much natural trees out there. Natural shaping is a much slower path than shaping a trunk and creating the "green helmet" look, but in the end the result is a national treasure....!
The problem is it will be in someone else's lifetime. Maybe that is why we choose to go the faster route and produce trees that looks good in the shorter term.

Thats why I write um Kemosabi. There are blogs up the wazoo that show work on trident maples in Japan. Peter Tea has lots of stuff at his blog. The problem is no one out there is showing the people starving for info on how to attack their first purchase or how to chop down a maple and work it over a number of years. Not many people here on this forum are working on maples with crowns on them like those seen in Japan. So while beautiful to look at, the message is pretty much useless till 15 years down the road.

Thats why I talk about starting from ground zero and just take the branches off and start over. Why waste all that time just to find out 5 years from now that had he taken off all those big branches in the top like Al said he would be three years ahead of schedule.

 

[seth ellwood]

My honest opinion is if you want this tree to heal those wounds over next year you need to get it in to a cement mixing tub and let the roots stretch out. make any major chops now so they can be healing at the same time as the remainder, Get it in some good bonsai soil and see what you can get by the end of next year. Do not cut the roots at all unless you have some that need attention if you remove lots of roots it will take an additional year for the tree to recover and push callous real well. Choose the primary branches you want for the tree, remove the rest so they can thicken. Wire them before leaf out to give some movement and let the wire just start to cut in to set them. Then do not touch them unless they start to get to thick then cut them back to start ramifying, I have been able to completely hear wounds over in 1 year that are larger than what your tree has and it seems to have pushed a lot of callous material last year from the color if the callous. These are the fundamentals I do not commonly see people saying in threads that is why I tend to just produce videos to show people what is needed . I am a visual learner better than a read for comprehension learner. Just my meager 2c.

 

[Q-Bonsai]

Thats why I write um Kemosabi. There are blogs up the wazoo that show work on trident maples in Japan. Peter Tea has lots of stuff at his blog. The problem is no one out there is showing the people starving for info on how to attack their first purchase or how to chop down a maple and work it over a number of years. Not many people here on this forum are working on maples with crowns on them like those seen in Japan. So while beautiful to look at, the message is pretty much useless till 15 years down the road.

Thats why I talk about starting from ground zero and just take the branches off and start over. Why waste all that time just to find out 5 years from now that had he taken off all those big branches in the top like Al said he would be three years ahead of schedule.

That is why I love working with tridents, it is very easy to start fresh and very quick (relatively) to create something nice. No other tree response to such treatment as well as tridents do (perhaps bald cypress).

Here's the thing with tridents, they can be ruined very quickly, in one growing season perhaps, if not properly tended for. This is especially true for younger material such as OP's tree. With that said, rather than making compromises by using what's there, it is very easy to chop everything off and start over, especially young material. Young trees are extra vigorous, so the branches that are cut off may heal within one growing season while a big flush of new branches will emerge.

You can some thing out of what you have in 3 or so years. But why not cut the branches off, start fresh and have a really good tree in 5 years?

 

[Adair M]

The way to build a trident bonsai is in stages.

Stage 1: Trunk and nebari.

Stage 2: Primary branches.

Stage 3: Ramification.

So, where to go with this tree? The owner has to decide what Stage it's in. If he's not happy with the trunk, he's in Stage 1, and needs to do whatever it takes to build the trunk. If he thinks he's in Stage 2, then branch building techniques are used. And so on

Personally, I like tridents with huge bases, wide nebari, and great taper. Others like to see more slender graceful trees. And others prefer broom styles. Each of these styles required different growing techniques.

If this were my tree, I'd follow Smoke's advice because I don't think the trunk is "built" yet. Others may think differently.

 

[Paradox]

Ok.. First, THANK YOU to everyone that responded and contributed to the discussion.

Now, @Smoke's suggestion: The second set of branches from the bottom do have pretty big bulges. If I do cut hose off along with the others as you suggest, will the bottom 2 branches also help to thicken the trunk above them to help take care of those bulges as well? It is clear that something has to be done about them at some point. Will letting those lowest ones grow do that?

I guess now see why the seller sold this tree in full leaf covering the whole trunk. It was very hard to see the whole trunk that way and now thaiis I canthe see it, this one has some obvious flaws.

I will repot this guy into an anderson flat this spring, that should give it plenty of growing room.

Yeah, I probably do have to spend less time reading this forum and more time reading blogs. I am at the point where most of what gets posted here is of little use. Once in a while someone posts or updates a progression that is informative. Nothing against you or your blog Al, Ive been there, I just dont read any regularly at this point as Ive been had a bit of tunnel vision when it comes to online reading.

 

[Paradox]

Whatever you do please don't plan on dressing this pride Trident up in a skirt in the finish. Nothing more undignifying to make it look like a pine. There is way to many blushing Tridents out there.....

Just my personal opinion

Smoke is correct, if you could post examples of what you are talking about here, it would be a big help.

 

[Nybonsai12]

If you are working with tridents, there is no better place to start than Al's blog. Tons of pictures and detailed instructios on techniques. And aside from his blog, he's generous enough to make himself accessible here.

The info is everywhere, you just have to commit to which direction you want to go with it. I know its scary to start hacking something you just put a lot of dough into, but in most cases trees gotta get uglier before they get prettier. Gotta crack a few eggs to make an omelette. O
I'd follow Al's advice, call me an ass kisser but the guy knows his shit, wouldn't steer you wrong, puts out all the info needed to take this tree there and is here to walk you through it. to say this forum has little useless info is crazy!

Now go hack that tree up, ok not now but you know what I mean! Good luck with.

If you aren't comfortable working it without supervision, you could save it and bring to the instructions you signed up for, right? Just another thought.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Maybe I missed it, but Paradox, do you have a vision for the "finished" look for this tree? As it sits now, three basic styles are achievable, IMO:
1. Fat base, tapering quickly to an apex. Somewhat pine-like, but very acceptable for tridents.
2. Graceful trunk with a more deciduous canopy.
3. Fat sumo shohin.

I'd recommend you start here: what do you want the finished tree to look like? Then, follow the direction of someone who has actually produced a trident maple with the look you like.

You have acknowledged the horticultural needs; closing scars, some branch reductions. You can do all that, but start with sharing your final vision, and we can produce some virts and direction from there.

 

[Adair M]

Sacrifice branches build wood between themselves and the roots down below them.

If you want to heal scars quickly, you need to let an apex branch run.

Smoke's approach where he "buys a trunk", and removes all the branches is absolutely the fastest way.

Deciduous trees are actually harder to develop and build properly, and take longer, than conifers.

 

[Paradox]

Sorry if I am being stupid here, but I am still new and this is my first decent maple. So, yeah, I am totally lost as to what to do to make this tree better and not screw it up.

@Brian, let me answer your question with a question (anyone that knows tridents can answer). I like both your pic 1 and pic 2 best. Pic 3 is also nice but I didnt necessarily want a sumo). Now, looking at this tree, is it better suited for either of those styles? I would want to do what the tree would be most suited for I guess. With the scars, Im not sure how well the tree could pull off something like pic 2.

I will say that I would rather not have a tree so big that I cant handle it myself. There will come a time in my future where I wont have help moving trees around.

@Ny and Adair. I am by no means dissing Al's suggestion as he is the most knowledgeble perons I know when it comes to tridents. I am meerly asking questions so that I can learn what to expect.

So if I let the bottom most branches grow, I will still have a bulge where the next ones up are? Would it work better to use the second ones up to thicken all the trunk below? Would it be a good idea to concentrate on healing the scars now or wait until later for that?

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

@Brian, let me answer your question with a question (anyone that knows tridents can answer). I like both your pic 1 and pic 2 best. Pic 3 is also nice but I didnt necessarily want a sumo). Now, looking at this tree, is it better suited for either of those styles? I would want to do what the tree would be most suited for I guess. With the scars, Im not sure how well the tree could pull off something like pic 2.

So here is a quick and dirty mock up on how to grow your tree into the first photo...sort of a pine tree look. It involves a chop (which removes most of the confusing parts anyway...), some regrowing, and a couple more chops. It's probably a 6-year plan.
1. Chop at the red line in May '15. Allow the yellow line to become the new leader.
2. Light brown is year 1 growth after initial chop. chop again at red line in May '16, year 2 is darker brown.
3. Year 3-4 is darker yet, chop again at the red line, start leaving some primary branches.
4. Years 5-6 is when branching develops.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

A less aggressive approach is to spread out the branches, prune for taper, and just begin to clip & grow the tree. The scars will take a long time to heal, but you'd just have to keep working on them; exposing the leading edge of cambium every couple months to keep it moving.

 

[coh]

Brian, your suggested plan (two posts up) is great, but I'm guessing it would take at least a few more than 5-6 years in the NY area. Maybe in California or the deep south it would be a 5-6 year plan...or maybe if the tree was planted in the ground in NY. But in a pot...I'm thinking it would take longer.

By the way, I really like the look of the second trident in your post...is that one of your trees? If not, do you know whose it is?

Chris

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

By the way, I really like the look of the second trident in your post...is that one of your trees? If not, do you know whose it is?

I just pulled it off a Bing search, but I think it's in the National Arboretum in DC...
http://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Trident_Maple_bonsai_52,_October_10,_2008.jpg

 

[Paradox]

Brian, thank you for taking the time for those verts.

On the second one, wouldnt the bulges at the lowest branches you left on the vert still be a problem or would the trunk thicken below them?
I looked at the tree this morning on the way out and they are definitely noticible.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Brian, thank you for taking the time for those verts.

On the second one, wouldnt the bulges at the lowest branches you left on the vert still be a problem or would the trunk thicken below them?
I looked at the tree this morning on the way out and they are definitely noticible.

They would have to be addressed, along with all the scars that were unfortunately left. Better foresight by the grower could have led to those being mostly closed before digging, or at least to the back.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Over 50 posts in I thought I'd toss in my opinion.

First - this tree has excellent nebari and first section of trunk - if it were my tree, I would be satisfied with it as is, at least concerning the basic building blocks, you will always find things to refine, but the "bones" are in place for the first section.

Paradox, I assume you want a tree that will look "pretty okay" in say maybe 5 years or less. Otherwise why spend what you did? In which case - trunk chops and air layer will not meet this time line. So options one & 2 proposed by Brian are good ideas.

If it were my tree (this means to my tastes) I would go with Brian's option #2 he outlined in post #55. Good eye Brian. This plan can create a nice, quiet, serene tree fairly quickly.

I would not be too worried about the bulges on the trunk, yes you need to begin addressing them now, but they can be fixed, good enough for local shows or club meetings, within a 5 year time line.

The first photo in the OP, is the one I would pick for a front, if seeing it in "real world" did reveal anything the photo didn't capture. That given, I would eliminate all the bar branching right away. One my tree, I would keep one of the lower branches for the time being. You can get rid of it later if you want to expose more of the trunk later. At each point where you remove a bar branch there will be a tendency for buds to break around the callus, once the callus begins to form. If you are lucky, buds will break at the top and bottom of the callus, which you would let grow out a bit, to help heal the wound, and since they are no longer in line with the opposite branch, if needed they can become new branches. But if it were my tree I would initially just plan on using the existing branches as BVF outlined in post #55.

Sacrifice branches allowed to run for a couple years at several levels of the tree would also help, but basically, you got the framework that if it were mine could be made into a "pretty okay" tree in fairly short amount of time.

Making a wild, exciting, radically different masterpiece from this tree would require starting over and spending more than 20 years rebuilding from scratch and refining. I would go with the "pretty okay" plan, and maybe pick up a second trident, to do the "radical" stuff with, with a long time line in mind. I know you like a more naturalistic design, but that was not how this tree was trained before you got it. You could do a second tree in the naturalistic design, starting with younger material, and train it that way from the start.