Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
Yes. It is very lax here when it comes to links. We even allowed to link to other forums (competition?).
Ponderosa From Burlap Bonanza
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Yes. It is very lax here when it comes to links. We even allowed to link to other forums (competition?).
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
I use Microsoft Office 2010 instead as my default pic manager. At least it allows me to do minor editing (i.e. crop, rotate - by degree or by 90*, mark-up, doodle, etc.)
fore
Omono
Thanks for your honesty Dario, I appreciate it. I've got plenty of time to try again lol
I will ask Pavel, good suggestion!
Wireme, I didn't cut any branches, just moved and shortened them. If you look closely, you'll see the two rust colored lines representing guy wires.
I will ask Pavel, good suggestion!
Wireme, I didn't cut any branches, just moved and shortened them. If you look closely, you'll see the two rust colored lines representing guy wires.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
From my understanding, Ponderosa can repositioned drastically using wire and some of the heavier bending techniques. I've seen limbs like yours bent into dramatic new positions and shapes on some of my friends' Ponderosas. They say such drastic repositioning is made even more possible if the bends are made after the tree has been wetted down. The moisture makes limbs much more pliable, apparently.
I'm up against some of these same issues with a Burlap Bonanza pondy I got from Andy two years ago. It is also growing like a weed and needs a design.
I'm up against some of these same issues with a Burlap Bonanza pondy I got from Andy two years ago. It is also growing like a weed and needs a design.
treebeard55
Chumono
My take
My inclination is similar to someone else's -- sorry, didn't note whose. I would also jin that dead second trunk. My virt is quick and rough, but I trust it will convey my concept, anyway.
Ponderosas are very flexible; the flip side is that changes take a long time to set.
My inclination is similar to someone else's -- sorry, didn't note whose. I would also jin that dead second trunk. My virt is quick and rough, but I trust it will convey my concept, anyway.
Ponderosas are very flexible; the flip side is that changes take a long time to set.
Attachments
daygan
Chumono
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
They are infinitely pliable, just be sure to go extra steps to completely immobilize the roots while you work, and don't do any work for the first couple years while the roots are settling into the pot.
tom tynan
Mame
The discussion about needle size and growing Ponderosa Pine seems to come up often on various sites with little consensus. Generally the larger the tree - say over 20" to 24" the less of an issue needle size becomes - simply because the larger tree needs more foliage mass in ratio to the trunk. As more people collect these trees - you start to see occassionally smaller trees. These trees ( I have one) are great to work with but it is difficult to get a 12" to 14" tree to reduce down the needle length to 2" or less. This is why there are many people that simply don't like the Ponderosa Pine look or a few others opt to graft scots pine or even black pine onto Ponderosa.
Larry Jackel's book has a specific chapter devoted to triggering back-budding in the Fall, aka. the Fall Technique. I have used this and it does work, and as Larry states it work the best the first time it is tried - although I have used it repeatedly on the same tree with decent results. More buds produce more needles - although somewhat smaller in length. Sometimes the budding is so productive there are simply too many buds and then one must eliminate both buds and needles.
Cutting of needles makes the tree look better almost instantly - but also weakens the tree. Within a few days the ends of the needles have a brown tinge of color - so that is the end result. If done too often - not good. I have read/heard that Ryan Neil states not to cut Ponderosa needles - since the needles are part of the overall photosynthesis system (paraphrase). Well - he probably has more top quality Ponderosa than most people in America so there is top-level experience and free advice for all of us.
If you go to Walter Pall's website he has two large Ponderosa Pines well documented - both very lush and healthy lots of buds it appears and needle length say 2 1/2" to 3" I would guess from the photo. They look great - but not like his mugo pines in terms of needle length or overall appearance.
Part of the problem with Ponderosa Pine is they are so adaptible - they grow well from Seattle to NY. If you search on the web for Dan Robinson's famous Ponderos pine "Jackie Gleason Dancing.." you will see it at the National Aboretum in Wash. DC. Well this Ponderosa is huge and has needles over 6" to 8" long and has been in a pot for over 30 years I believe. If you look at Ponderosa Pines from the Rocky Mountain Bonsai Society they do look much more compact with shorter needles - perhaps due to elevation and climate...
If the look of a well developed JBP or JWP is your goal then the Ponderosa is probably not the pine to work with - it will always have a fuller, less refined, perhaps almost wild appearance. I do think that more work is needed to understand how to create nice foliage masses with Ponderosa Pines. Almost all collected trees have a strong terminal bud with little budding on the sides of the branch. To create a nice foliage mass - the branch needs to fork closer to the trunk. Really working with a few trees over a period of 3 to 5 years will provide the hands on experience to see results. The attached photo and close-up shows it is possible to get the branch ends to divide - but the results are still not there. This tree will be re-wired this year.
Tom
Larry Jackel's book has a specific chapter devoted to triggering back-budding in the Fall, aka. the Fall Technique. I have used this and it does work, and as Larry states it work the best the first time it is tried - although I have used it repeatedly on the same tree with decent results. More buds produce more needles - although somewhat smaller in length. Sometimes the budding is so productive there are simply too many buds and then one must eliminate both buds and needles.
Cutting of needles makes the tree look better almost instantly - but also weakens the tree. Within a few days the ends of the needles have a brown tinge of color - so that is the end result. If done too often - not good. I have read/heard that Ryan Neil states not to cut Ponderosa needles - since the needles are part of the overall photosynthesis system (paraphrase). Well - he probably has more top quality Ponderosa than most people in America so there is top-level experience and free advice for all of us.
If you go to Walter Pall's website he has two large Ponderosa Pines well documented - both very lush and healthy lots of buds it appears and needle length say 2 1/2" to 3" I would guess from the photo. They look great - but not like his mugo pines in terms of needle length or overall appearance.
Part of the problem with Ponderosa Pine is they are so adaptible - they grow well from Seattle to NY. If you search on the web for Dan Robinson's famous Ponderos pine "Jackie Gleason Dancing.." you will see it at the National Aboretum in Wash. DC. Well this Ponderosa is huge and has needles over 6" to 8" long and has been in a pot for over 30 years I believe. If you look at Ponderosa Pines from the Rocky Mountain Bonsai Society they do look much more compact with shorter needles - perhaps due to elevation and climate...
If the look of a well developed JBP or JWP is your goal then the Ponderosa is probably not the pine to work with - it will always have a fuller, less refined, perhaps almost wild appearance. I do think that more work is needed to understand how to create nice foliage masses with Ponderosa Pines. Almost all collected trees have a strong terminal bud with little budding on the sides of the branch. To create a nice foliage mass - the branch needs to fork closer to the trunk. Really working with a few trees over a period of 3 to 5 years will provide the hands on experience to see results. The attached photo and close-up shows it is possible to get the branch ends to divide - but the results are still not there. This tree will be re-wired this year.
Tom
Attachments
fore
Omono
Steve and Daygan, thanks for the virtuals. But to me, they aren't compact enough.
Brian, Andy told me that after one yr. if there were a lot of new backbuds, and terminal growth is strong, then the tree is strong enough to be worked even if it's been only a yr. in the pot.
Tom, I totally agree. Though it'll prob. never have mugo/limber pine needles, with time and experience, we should be able to reduce the needles. Personally, I don't mind the larger needles, like you said, kinda gives it a wild look.
Brian, Andy told me that after one yr. if there were a lot of new backbuds, and terminal growth is strong, then the tree is strong enough to be worked even if it's been only a yr. in the pot.
Tom, I totally agree. Though it'll prob. never have mugo/limber pine needles, with time and experience, we should be able to reduce the needles. Personally, I don't mind the larger needles, like you said, kinda gives it a wild look.
daygan
Chumono
well, that's certainly true
I didn't bother with compacting foliage because I was mostly just going for a "starting concept" and figured you would know whether more compact foliage was or was not best for your personal design In my mind more compact foliage is just a given.
lordy
Omono
I have found the same to be true with Photobucket. However that may have changed as they recently rolled out a new version with many features. When in Beta I was asked what I would like to see in the new version, and this rotation problem is one I mentioned. I have only this week seen the new version and have yet to try the rotation feature as it pertains to off-Photobucket web pages.Nice tree fore
My experience with picasa has been that you have to go into the actual file on your computer to rotate the picture- ("my pictures" in windows). Just rotating them in picasa won't translate anywhere besides picasa.
fore
Omono
I've just kept up the high feeding and haven't styled it at all. There's just so many new buds on new and old branching. None on trunk, though I didn't expect any. I thought I had taken a pic, but cant find it tonight. So I'll get a pic out showing all the tremendous growth. Goes in line with the thought the more foliage, the more back budding. So for me, it's making me re-think my approach to this tree. I won't be touching this tree for sev. yrs, let inner buds develop and mature, and when I'm happy with enough bud sites, I'll start gradually reducing the branches length. Then I'll style it.
My other PP was growing really well last yr., with some new back buds. Then I styled it last yr., and this year, there's very little back buds, the candle development and maturity are also way behind the other PP.
Well, these are my observations right now simply.
Chris
My other PP was growing really well last yr., with some new back buds. Then I styled it last yr., and this year, there's very little back buds, the candle development and maturity are also way behind the other PP.
Well, these are my observations right now simply.
Chris
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
Chris, I looked back through the thread but couldn't find this info - can you describe what "high feeding" means? What kind and how much fertilizer are you using? Trying to figure that out for my own pondy's...
Chris
Chris
fore
Omono
Chris, I just followed Walter P's advice where he feeds inorganic ferts, I use MG, 5X the normal rate. I use that injector we discussed last yr. I got mine from Matt Ouwinga who uses 14oz on setting 3, for 1:100ppm = 1tbsp MG/gal of injected water.
So I used last yr, and all this yr, 28oz/gal = 2tbsp/gal of injected water. Matt did the math of how many ppm. I've had no adverse effects on any tree Chris using this super concentrated solution. I ran into problems this yr. by putting osmocote in the brown plastic containers, on too many too fast. (Immature foliage on my RMJ, and just a touch of immature foliage on my Itoigawa.)
I'm thinking of using this miracle grow on in ground trees, and using General Hydroponics 3 fert program on my trees. I bought a 20 g. container, a gal of N, a gal of their micronutrients, and a gal. of K. You mix them in a 3:2:1 for vegetative growth. I have a pump that'll go in the bottom of the 20g trashcan, attached to 1/2" black poly tubing that I can feed the trees with. GH products are really good, consistent and reliable fert program. And a lot cheaper than say a $50g of organics. And since all of my trees are in early development, I'm looking for trunk/branch dev., root dev., and I don't care about needle length at all right now. Just feed the hell out of them.
Somewhere on Walter's blog he talks about his fert program. It's the most aggressive one I've seen, and I think the results speak for themselves.
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
Thanks for the info, Chris. I'm familiar with Walter's approach and his results do look impressive. Just to clarify - you're not fertilizing continuously, are you? If not, what frequency? And can you remind me which injector you are using...not the EZ Flow, right?
Chris
Chris
fore
Omono
Yes Chris, the EZ Flow. And I fertilize once/wk.
Edit: To use such a high concentration of MG, weigh out the 28oz's, put in the EZ Flow and add water. Let sit for an hr or two, and it will be a disolved concentration.
Edit: To use such a high concentration of MG, weigh out the 28oz's, put in the EZ Flow and add water. Let sit for an hr or two, and it will be a disolved concentration.
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treebeard55
Chumono
Chris, now I'm not so worried about my ponderosa. It's also a Burlap Bonanza tree, from 2010, and was growing like gangbusters. Then last year I styled it in a workshop with Andy Smith in Fort Wayne. (You can see my blog post about it here, if you like: http://hoosierbonsai.blogspot.com/2012/06/spruce-ponderosas-and-larch-oh-my-part_17.html)
This year it seems to be pouting! A few buds opened partly, then dried up; the rest are healthy, but the needles are very short and still not fully open. The needle color, on old foliage, has been just slightly off all season; just enough to keep me checking it more often! But it's not shedding needles.
I use rainwater for it, with Peters 20-20-20 mixed in a weak solution; pellets of composted chicken poop are spread on the surface. Every 2-3 weeks I'm giving it some foliar feeding; pondies are supposed to benefit well from that, I understand.
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treebeard55
Chumono
Dan, mine was styled in early June, which is the tag end of spring/start of summer here. Andy stopped on his way back from the big bash in Rochester, New York; that was the main factor in scheduling the workshop.
We did have a serious drought last summer. (Lots of landscaping had to be replaced, all over the city.) I did my best to keep everything watered, and ponderosas are dryland pines to begin with. And some other, younger, ponderosas that I bought for learning trees and/or for later use are doing OK this year, not struggling like my yamadori tree.
Which all leaves me wondering if the drought had anything to do with my tree's weak start this year.
Maybe its contributing a little.
We did have a serious drought last summer. (Lots of landscaping had to be replaced, all over the city.) I did my best to keep everything watered, and ponderosas are dryland pines to begin with. And some other, younger, ponderosas that I bought for learning trees and/or for later use are doing OK this year, not struggling like my yamadori tree.
Which all leaves me wondering if the drought had anything to do with my tree's weak start this year.
Maybe its contributing a little.fore
Omono
Interesting Steve. However, I don't know what I was thinking when I noted the other PP. I was thinking of another tree and for some reason when I wrote about the PP. Sorry guys!
Here's the scoop. I styled mine 11/2011 at a Jim Doyle/Walter Pall workshop. Then in 2012, it was growing well with 'some' back budding. Not nearly as much as the bur lapped one in comparative. But it was in old bonsai soil, pumice, and the pumice was broken down terrible, so it never really dried out. So this spring, I repotted it in bonsai soil, not touching the roots though...I just kinda shook it to get most of the gunky soil off and then potted it up. Minimal disturbance. And then the above is true about it's lackluster growth this yr.
So I'm thinking now that I got my facts right, lol, that even a gentle repot affects new growth.
And again, so sorry guys about the confusion, I really messed up!!
Chris
