Collected Elm Progression

[99 Mile Creek]

This was the second tree I've collected with my son in mid April of 2024. Does anyone know what specie exactly? I often get hornbeam and elm confused.

After collecting, I applied a thin layer of clear 'craft' glue and potted it in 5:5:2:1 fuller's earth, perlite, pine bark, and peat (throwing a handful of the fine, sifted fuller's earth & perlite to add some grit, not having coarse sand on hand). But that's it. I've kept it in full sun and watered it just as I water the rest of the trees, just as it's about to go dry.

I'm surprised to see it sprouting foliage so soon. Maybe an elm?

I will try to keep this thread updated with its progression. I've seen a few threads on here doing as much, and it's always nice to see success stories.

Currently, I'm debating it's height. Cut down a bit more, or keep the length? I typically like the taller bonsai (this one ~ 12- 15 inches).

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Those are really young leaves to be able to identify.

 

[99 Mile Creek]

Those are really young leaves to be able to identify.

Thanks for having a look. I think I identified it as an elm before collection, but I'm not certain.

I'll update when the foliage is mature. Thanks.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Thanks for having a look. I think I identified it as an elm before collection, but I'm not certain.

I'll update when the foliage is mature. Thanks.

I was more interested in trying to figure out what species of elm it was

 

[99 Mile Creek]

Oh, I see. Can't wait to crack this nut. Stay tuned!

 

[rockm]

It's far too early to be making any definitive plans for a design on this. It's not been out of the ground for a year and is not all that stable (despite it apparently being an elm--an even that isn't certain at least for me). Doing more chops, etc. now will eliminate a lot of options down the road, not to mention possibly damaging the developing root systems with the vibration and movement any sawing on the trunk will produce.

FWIW, just because it sprouted new growth doesn't mean it has recovered from the shock of collection. Such early budding isn't unnusual in some species. It's when that early budding stops growing that things get concerning. This article on collecting cedar elm by Zach Smith details the process of elm recovery.

The Wonderful Cedar Elm, And A Lesson On How To Gauge Success | Bonsai South

bonsai-south.com

Cool it for at least a year. Let the tree alone. See if you can keep it alive, then start making plans next spring with growth you might get in the meantime.

 

[99 Mile Creek]

It's far too early to be making any definitive plans for a design on this. It's not been out of the ground for a year and is not all that stable (despite it apparently being an elm--an even that isn't certain at least for me). Doing more chops, etc. now will eliminate a lot of options down the road, not to mention possibly damaging the developing root systems with the vibration and movement any sawing on the trunk will produce.

FWIW, just because it sprouted new growth doesn't mean it has recovered from the shock of collection. Such early budding isn't unnusual in some species. It's when that early budding stops growing that things get concerning. This article on collecting cedar elm by Zach Smith details the process of elm recovery.

The Wonderful Cedar Elm, And A Lesson On How To Gauge Success | Bonsai South

bonsai-south.com

Cool it for at least a year. Let the tree alone. See if you can keep it alive, then start making plans next spring with growth you might get in the meantime.

That article is loaded with great information. Thanks for the pointers.

 

[rockm]

That article is loaded with great information. Thanks for the pointers.

BTW, Zach used only a cordless reciprocating saw to collect the elms. No shovel. Brought two extra blades. Took literally three minutes to collect some of those elms.

 

[99 Mile Creek]

That's something to look into, should I do this more. I felt very much my age after collecting this tree.

 

[rockm]

That's something to look into, should I do this more. I felt very much my age after collecting this tree.

FWIW, This kind of collection depends on what species you're digging. It will kill most conifers, BTW.

Elms are pretty easy to get, if you go after trees that are under four or five inches in diameter. Bigger means more lifting, shifting and hauling, which can take a toll on you and the tree. Carolina hornbeam is another species that can take aggressive collection, same for bald cypress. It can work on wisteria, but can also result in significant die back on the trunk over time. I've collected all those this way.

I no longer keep ANY field soil on deciduous trees at collection, bare rooting them at collection, then planting them directly into good bonsai soil. Zach drove up from La. with pre-prepared containers of soil ready to go in the back of his truck. He put all those cedar elms into those containers after we washed what soil was on their roots off completely.

Soil composition can be a key to it as well. I use decent bonsai soil for newly collected trees-- If you're making your own soil, go very light on finer organic components. Recently dug trees respond well to extra air pulled through the soil (watering pulls air into the root mass as the water drains through) to develop roots. Peat moss is too fine and clogs thing up quickly. Don't go too light though, skip peat moss, opt for composted pine bark, or "baby" orchid bark.

Also don't get greedy with what you dig up. Leave really promising trees in the ground until you master how to keep what you dig alive for more than a year.

 

[99 Mile Creek]

FWIW, This kind of collection depends on what species you're digging. It will kill most conifers, BTW.

Elms are pretty easy to get, if you go after trees that are under four or five inches in diameter. Bigger means more lifting, shifting and hauling, which can take a toll on you and the tree. Carolina hornbeam is another species that can take aggressive collection, same for bald cypress. It can work on wisteria, but can also result in significant die back on the trunk over time. I've collected all those this way.

I no longer keep ANY field soil on deciduous trees at collection, bare rooting them at collection, then planting them directly into good bonsai soil. Zach drove up from La. with pre-prepared containers of soil ready to go in the back of his truck. He put all those cedar elms into those containers after we washed what soil was on their roots off completely.

Soil composition can be a key to it as well. I use decent bonsai soil for newly collected trees-- If you're making your own soil, go very light on finer organic components. Recently dug trees respond well to extra air pulled through the soil (watering pulls air into the root mass as the water drains through) to develop roots. Peat moss is too fine and clogs thing up quickly. Don't go too light though, skip peat moss, opt for composted pine bark, or "baby" orchid bark.

Also don't get greedy with what you dig up. Leave really promising trees in the ground until you master how to keep what you dig alive for more than a year.

This is all great information you've provided. Thank you.

I did some of what you suggested, removing field soil (not super clean, but raked -- very lightly and meticulously -- and shaken) and having both pre-made bonsai soil and various containers ready to use immediately upon extraction. I'm fortunate most of my collecting, if not all, will be at a family property where we have a small shed with tools and water all on site.

You're not the first to mention conifers being difficult to collect. For that reason, I've left them alone till I'm confident.

And for my substrate...some might not agree with this:

I think I go about 10% organic in my soils. But really, I just eyeball it. A lot of it is what I have on hand or what I can find -- it all ends up getting blended together with previous mixes. If my substrate bin looks too 'dark' or organic, I'll add a bit more fuller's earth and perlite, akadma, pumice, etc. I haven't had an issue with using peat moss yet, but I also use coarse sand and coconut fibers and barks (I second orchid bark). So it's all this big blend of substrate that varies from one tree to the next, really...sort of. When they need repotting or transplanting, I typically recycle the substrate back into the bin if it appears okay. I also rinse it thoroughly, incase some of those substrates break down, getting rid of the muck. I usually use my 'scoop' which is a small training pot with drainage holes and water several times to test if it drains well. In the end, what I end up with generally has the same look and feel and is always, always an airy-substrate mix -- I think that would match your description for collected-tree soil and my goals for a general bonsai mix. If this is erroneous, I'm open for constructive criticism. I will go with a better mix (both traditional and atheistically pleasing) with trees that are more mature.

As far as the trees being dug up, I've already marked the one's I've found that will make good bonsai, and I've already cut some of them down. My goal is to cut some of the roots the year before I intend to collect -- especially the taproot, cutting it not as short as I will upon collection, but making the cut so it doesn't have so much stress when I finally collect. At least that's the plan and what some of the literature has pointed toward.

 

[rockm]

This is all great information you've provided. Thank you.

I did some of what you suggested, removing field soil (not super clean, but raked -- very lightly and meticulously -- and shaken) and having both pre-made bonsai soil and various containers ready to use immediately upon extraction. I'm fortunate most of my collecting, if not all, will be at a family property where we have a small shed with tools and water all on site.

You're not the first to mention conifers being difficult to collect. For that reason, I've left them alone till I'm confident.

And for my substrate...some might not agree with this:

I think I go about 10% organic in my soils. But really, I just eyeball it. A lot of it is what I have on hand or what I can find -- it all ends up getting blended together with previous mixes. If my substrate bin looks too 'dark' or organic, I'll add a bit more fuller's earth and perlite, akadma, pumice, etc. I haven't had an issue with using peat moss yet, but I also use coarse sand and coconut fibers and barks (I second orchid bark). So it's all this big blend of substrate that varies from one tree to the next, really...sort of. When they need repotting or transplanting, I typically recycle the substrate back into the bin if it appears okay. I also rinse it thoroughly, incase some of those substrates break down, getting rid of the muck. I usually use my 'scoop' which is a small training pot with drainage holes and water several times to test if it drains well. In the end, what I end up with generally has the same look and feel and is always, always an airy-substrate mix -- I think that would match your description for collected-tree soil and my goals for a general bonsai mix. If this is erroneous, I'm open for constructive criticism. I will go with a better mix (both traditional and atheistically pleasing) with trees that are more mature.

As far as the trees being dug up, I've already marked the one's I've found that will make good bonsai, and I've already cut some of them down. My goal is to cut some of the roots the year before I intend to collect -- especially the taproot, cutting it not as short as I will upon collection, but making the cut so it doesn't have so much stress when I finally collect. At least that's the plan and what some of the literature has pointed toward.

"My goal is to cut some of the roots the year before I intend to collect -- especially the taproot, cutting it not as short as I will upon collection, but making the cut so it doesn't have so much stress when I finally collect."

DO NOT do this. You can wind up killing the tree. What you're doing is weakening the tree so it can't keep up with its surrounding competitors for light. Save the root pruning for when you collect it. Doing that pruning in ground buys you nothing really

 

[99 Mile Creek]

I’m not sure which source told me to cut the taproot back over a few years. I’ll refrain from doing that. If I can find it somewhere I’ll post my source. Thanks for the heads up. That could have been bad, it sounds.

"My goal is to cut some of the roots the year before I intend to collect -- especially the taproot, cutting it not as short as I will upon collection, but making the cut so it doesn't have so much stress when I finally collect."

DO NOT do this. You can wind up killing the tree. What you're doing is weakening the tree so it can't keep up with its surrounding competitors for light. Save the root pruning for when you collect it. Doing that pruning in ground buys you nothing really

 

[rockm]

I've done that with some trees. Some weakened significantly. Some died by the next spring. It's not a great way to collect, it can do more harm than good. You want the tree as strong as possible when you collect it. Disturbing the roots ahead of time weakens it.

 

[circledisk]

I’m not sure which source told me to cut the taproot back over a few years. I’ll refrain from doing that. If I can find it somewhere I’ll post my source. Thanks for the heads up. That could have been bad, it sounds.

There is a technique for doing in ground root pruning, but cutting the taproot should absolutely be left for last. If the tree has really expansive, thick roots, you can encourage fine root growth at the right time of year by digging a channel around the tree and filling it with a looser soil medium, like a collected tree mix with mostly pumice, and topdressing it with topsoil or compost. That way when you go to collect, you have more fine roots at the base of the tree and its an easier transition. This technique has worked for a dozen or so pretty large trees for me. I detail it in my field growing thread. https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/the-2024-field-growing-thread.64855/

There's some debate about the fuction of the taproot, but in mature trees I don't believe it serves any serious function. The root spread gets more nutrients for the tree than the taproot.

 

[circledisk]

I've done that with some trees. Some weakened significantly. Some died by the next spring. It's not a great way to collect, it can do more harm than good. You want the tree as strong as possible when you collect it. Disturbing the roots ahead of time weakens it.

This is sort of the point of field growing...you prepare the tree to be moved well before you do so that it can take advantage of the extra resources in the ground. If you need to, you can move it to a grow bed with a balled and burlapped root ball and let it regain strength there for a few seasons.

 

[Gabler]

This is sort of the point of field growing...you prepare the tree to be moved well before you do so that it can take advantage of the extra resources in the ground. If you need to, you can move it to a grow bed with a balled and burlapped root ball and let it regain strength there for a few seasons.

I'm not sure what you're suggesting. Collect the tree, put it in the ground elsewhere, and then dig it up again later?

 

[circledisk]

I'm not sure what you're suggesting. Collect the tree, put it in the ground elsewhere, and then dig it up again later?

Yes. Collect the tree, put it in a grow bed where you can give it more regular attention, and let it keep growing. Trees don't have to go from the ground straight to a container. Ground growing after a chop is very advantageous.

 

[rockm]

Yes. Collect the tree, put it in a grow bed where you can give it more regular attention, and let it keep growing. Trees don't have to go from the ground straight to a container. Ground growing after a chop is very advantageous.

I don't like having to collect trees twice.

I only collect trees that are already developed--which is my primary reason in collecting. Remove the tree from the wild removes it from the environment that makes it worth collecting. I get the point however. Ground growing can offer some advantages for bulk growing, like a new apex or to rapidly thicken existing primary branching.

 

[circledisk]

Exactly. It’s a faster way to heal big wounds and encourage growth in certain ways. A lot of folks will container grow for 3 years and then ground grow for another 3 before putting the tree in a pot forever.