Pesitcide/ Fungicide and their effect on people

[mc4mc44]

For the first few years I grew my trees I got away with not spraying any of them at all. I never had any real issues until I bought a pine that had some needlecast. I sprayed it a couple times, and the fungus never spread to the new needles. I was paranoid about the spray, so paranoid that I bought a respirator and suited up in jeans and a hoodie to protect myself from it. Then fall came and I thought I could still get away with only spraying the one pine, and I almost lost a RMJ to a fungus I never even noticed until I saw yellowing needles. Now this year I've had to spray almost all of my trees almost every two weeks. Every one of them caught something or has bugs. My worry about the sprays has lessened, but I still wear the respirator. I've done some light research on the sprays, and there are some obvious health hazards, but it seems that as long as you aren't drinking the stuff you're not going to die anytime soon. I still get worried every time I spray my trees, but what I'm wondering is if I'm alone here with my level of paranoia. I've read a lot on bonsai sites about sprays, but no one seems to mention being careful with them (other than the obvious precautions).

I'm particularly worried because I have a dozen chickens now who wander all over my yard. They eat worms, grasses and bugs from around my trees, and in turn I end up eating their eggs. This means I might have been eating eggs laced with pesticides and fungicides for awhile now.
It's not exactly what I would call a happy thought...

I've read allover Bnut that everyone has had to spray their trees more often over the past few years. What precautions do you all take? Any at all, other than the obvious? Am I the only one this paranoid? Am I just going crazy? I thought I was still to young to catch the crazies...

 

[october]

You are not paranoid, you are smart. Unfortunately, it seems like every few days, literally, there is a post about fungus, pests, spraying and trees declining. Especially junipers and pines. I have never see so many problems all over the place.

As far as your situation. I think that you will be fine, I assume that you have not felt sick. Stomach pain and/or headache etc.. I would stop eating the things you think might be tainted. I highly recommend Bonide copper fungicide concentrate and also Bonide all seasons horticultural oil. Both you mix with a gallon of water and they are not highly toxic like many things out there.

As far as PPE. Yes, every time I spray, even low level toxicity stuff like horticultural oil, I wear a long sleeve shirt, gloves and a mask. Just a regular dust mask. It says right on the labels to not let things get on your skin and to do not inhale it, especially the fungicide. The warnings should always be adhered to.

I have cement in my yard. So it dries up and/or washes away after I spray. You might want to designate one area on a hard surface and just spray in that one area.

Rob

 

[GrimLore]

I use Malathion and it is indeed a pretty dangerous item if used incorrectly. I do however make different mixes for different plant types including Vegetables and Fruit trees and just stop spraying 10 days before harvest. I feel that used correctly any pesticide can do more good then bad. Also, as the weeks fly by here I find myself treating the concrete and shelves more then the plants themselves which seems quite effective... I used to raise a large variety of Fowl and honest I cannot say I have ever seen any of them get sick from ingesting pests. I highly doubt that the eggs would be in question if the birds are themselves healthy...

 

[davetree]

If you read a little bit of research you will learn that pesticides are easily transferred from the environment to chicken to egg. The chickens can pass on many pathogens to the eggs while remaining healthy. And not killing you immediately doesn't mean you can't get sick later on from ingesting contaminated eggs. In fact it is one of the chicken industry's big concerns about "free range" egg-producing birds.

 

[october]

I use Malathion and it is indeed a pretty dangerous item if used incorrectly. I do however make different mixes for different plant types including Vegetables and Fruit trees and just stop spraying 10 days before harvest. I feel that used correctly any pesticide can do more good then bad. Also, as the weeks fly by here I find myself treating the concrete and shelves more then the plants themselves which seems quite effective... I used to raise a large variety of Fowl and honest I cannot say I have ever seen any of them get sick from ingesting pests. I highly doubt that the eggs would be in question if the birds are themselves healthy...

Hi GrimLore, why do you need something as strong as Malathion? There are many other less toxic products that work well. I am not sure if I am remembering correctly, however is malathion going to be unavailable soon? I think I heard it will not be able to be sold in the future.

Rob

 

[GrimLore]

Hi GrimLore, why do you need something as strong as Malathion? There are many other less toxic products that work well. I am not sure if I am remembering correctly, however is malathion going to be unavailable soon? I think I heard it will not be able to be sold in the future.

Rob

We live on 5 1/2 Acres surrounded by Farm and Preserved land. We have a substantial amount of Large trees and an Orchard. My guess is we have SO Many insects because of the use of Industrial Products on the surrounding properties. In any event I spent a few years chasing down pests with fully organic methods and a mix of many ideas and it turned out not effective and extremely time consuming to a point where there was no enjoyment. Since using this in 5 different mixes for different applications the plants are doing MUCH better and my applications are far and few...

 

[october]

We live on 5 1/2 Acres surrounded by Farm and Preserved land. We have a substantial amount of Large trees and an Orchard. My guess is we have SO Many insects because of the use of Industrial Products on the surrounding properties. In any event I spent a few years chasing down pests with fully organic methods and a mix of many ideas and it turned out not effective and extremely time consuming to a point where there was no enjoyment. Since using this in 5 different mixes for different applications the plants are doing MUCH better and my applications are far and few...

Sounds reasonable. That is how it should be done. You start with least toxic than move up as needed.

Rob

 

[GrimLore]

Sounds reasonable. That is how it should be done. You start with least toxic than move up as needed.

Rob

Yes and honest I am extremely careful just out of my love of the Earth and my Wife is an Enviornmental Engineer here so if I need questions answered she either does or has a multitude of sources like DEP and DEC which she works with on a regular basis on projects.

 

[GrimLore]

If you read a little bit of research you will learn that pesticides are easily transferred from the environment to chicken to egg. The chickens can pass on many pathogens to the eggs while remaining healthy. And not killing you immediately doesn't mean you can't get sick later on from ingesting contaminated eggs. In fact it is one of the chicken industry's big concerns about "free range" egg-producing birds.

Depending on where you live your drinking water contains arsenic, and yes I realize that "IF" the birds ate a lot of DEAD poisoned critters the ingested chemical could pass in small quantities to the egg. It has been my experience having raised hundreds of birds that they pass up the dead for live so as I see it they are ingesting very little if any toxins... I am not arguing just using logic based on experience and using proper methods.

 

[monza]

I think your being a little 'over' paranoid, but that might be a good thing as Rob has said.

We, I mean mostly my wife, has been trying to grow a nice big vegetable garden for a few years not so successfully due to worms, bugs and slugs. Tried every thing organic to battle it and nothing worked. This spring I build some huge cedar, elevated garden boxes and bought the best soil I could find and the garden was doing amazing. Just this last week most vegetables have this worm called a "cabbage worm" (not 100% on ID). The old farmer gardner neighbour next door to me has been spraying his very successful garden for years with Malathion. For a couple years he'd say spray it, I'd think he was nuts and he thinks I'm nuts. I went and bought some and sprayed yesterday.

Totally bummed and disheartening for sure having second thoughts on the whole garden idea and spraying. Do I really want to eat Malathion veggies and feed it to my kids? No. Maybe it's still better then other random commercial grown non organic stuff, I don't know?

 

[GrimLore]

I think your being a little 'over' paranoid, but that might be a good thing as Rob has said.

We, I mean mostly my wife, has been trying to grow a nice big vegetable garden for a few years not so successfully due to worms, bugs and slugs. Tried every thing organic to battle it and nothing worked. This spring I build some huge cedar, elevated garden boxes and bought the best soil I could find and the garden was doing amazing. Just this last week most vegetables have this worm called a "cabbage worm" (not 100% on ID). The old farmer gardner neighbour next door to me has been spraying his very successful garden for years with Malathion. For a couple years he'd say spray it, I'd think he was nuts and he thinks I'm nuts. I went and bought some and sprayed yesterday.

Totally bummed and disheartening for sure having second thoughts on the whole garden idea and spraying. Do I really want to eat Malathion veggies and feed it to my kids? No. Maybe it's still better then other random commercial grown non organic stuff, I don't know?

There are highly detailed instructions on the use of Malathion for ALL species of plants. It is simply a matter of following what you read and being a good steward - Bottom line is it works and if you are responsible you can use it properly with a hell of a lot less problems to nature then what one might think, combined diligence and common sense is always the way to success

I did mention earlier to stop using it 10 days before harvest, makes sense if you use water at all, also makes sense that the "perfect" veggies you find at the local store probably do not have that type of concern for your health...

 

[jk_lewis]

I spent 35 years working for environmental agencies in the State of Florida, some of that dealing with pesticides.

Pesticides can make people ill incrementally; a little here and a little there can end up equaling a lot, so I end up using very few, and those are short-lived, organically derived poisons. I don't use "organic" because they're Organic and thus, by definition, "Good." That is absolute nonsense. Poisons are poisons, and you can end up just as sick thru overexposure to Pyrethrins as you can with Malathion.

But Pyrethrins are contact killers for bugs (And, NOTE THIS: Fish, so do not use near fish ponds, especially if it is windy), and they degenerate quickly. Malathion hangs around for a relatively long time and you can be exposed to today's poisons for several days -- or longer. And it is VERY damaging to bees and other pollinators, so in some respects farmers are shooting themselves in the foot.

Generally, your best approach for pests on bonsai (and in your yard -- I'm NOT talking about agricultural operations here) is to use the least toxic alternative first. If that doesn't work, ratchet it up a notch, etc. To start, it can be a bit more work, but I think not poisoning yourself, your family and your pets is worth a bit more work.

Hand picking and squishing a minor infestation is the absolute best approach. A HARD spray of water on your trees (not the soil!) will take care of many pests, and is almost always all you need for spider mites. Soap sprays can be effective for some of the sucking insects -- aphids, scale, the true bugs, etc. -- and in the cooler months (and indoors), an oil spray is very effective. You can get combination oil/soap sprays but they're dangerous to use in the heat of the summer -- unless you are looking for deep fried plants.

For caterpillars a powder containing Bacillus thuriengenesis WILL take care of the problem. It is a bacterium and is harmless to everything but caterpillars, mosquitos and other insects. It is commonly called BT. For beetles, BT may work, but the spray (below) is bst.

The "Big Guns" of organic pesticides include the aforementioned Pyrethrin or (or and/or) Rotenone sprays. Pyrethrins are derived from Chrysanthemums, and Rotenone from a legume and other plants. Rotenone is being phased out for various health reasons, except as a fish poison. As I said they kill on contact and their effectiveness is a very few hours. They should be sprayed in the evening so as to avoid harming most pollinating insects

I know much less about fungicides, except that the kinds most people can buy (non-professional pesticide applicators) will not CURE a fungus. Fungicides should be applied at the beginning of spring , summer and fall to HELP prevent some fungal diseases. Since I have it on hand, I simply use very dilute lime sulfur.

Prevention is the best approach to fungal infections (and to insect infestations, etc). Keep all tables clean, wash off all loose dirt, dead leaves, and weeds (which should be pulled as soon as they are seen!!!!). Leave enough space between trees so canopies do not touch and air can move freely between them. (Lack of air movement is why most indoor bonsai are always full of critters).

I'm at the point now where I have more trees than table, so I'm finding this last advice hard to follow. A major culling of trees is imminent.

Oh yes . . . the most important point of all: READ THE LABEL!

 

[mc4mc44]

Thanks to everyone, but I might as well say that I haven't had to use the "big guns" to often yet, so I'm not really that worried about poison eggs. I was just wondering what precautions are taken for the regular grower of plants in general. The worst I've used was Daconil, but only on the juniper and the pine. I brought those trees out to the street before spraying them, the birds never go that far, so it probably couldn't have been ingested.

The worst things the chickens could have ingested are pyrethrins and Bonide copper spray. Although, like jkl pointed out, a poison is a poison, so I'm not happy about the whole egg situation. I'm just going to keep them in the coop for the day I spray, they barely even notice as long as you go inside and entertain them a little bit. There are farms where the chickens never go outside at all, so I won't feel bad about leaving them in for a day.

 

[carpinus]

Hi, Im an arborist and certified pesticide applicator in Michigan and also a bonsai enthusiast. It's good to be cautious. As said already, read the whole label. That will tell you most of what you need to know. Spray early or late when there are no winds. Drift (from even a mild wind) is huge in determining whether you are treating just your target, or spreading your spray to other areas in your yard. If your sprayer has an option to use bigger droplets and lower pressure, you can reduce drift in breezy conditions and protect those chickens. I realize that most bonsai folks are using very low volume sprayers, even hand sprayers and not big commercial trucks. I use a hand sprayer too for most of my bonsai needs. Even with those, you will notice that a harder manual squeeze of the trigger will produce a finer mist, where a gentler squeeze with less pressure can get bigger, heavier droplets less prone to drift. All this said about caution, there's no need to keep animals away all day. Once product dries, you're basically good to go. Just be careful to limit product application to target only by minimizing drift, and you'll be in great shape.

If you mix in a surfactant or "spreader/sticker" your product will, like the name implies, spread and stick more efficiently to the leaf surface, and because of this you can use less product than the label-recommended mixing rate and get as good of, or better results than using full strength with no surfactant. This stuff is really cool and effective, and can save you money by letting you dial back product use. It's pretty inexpensive. I use a spreader sticker from formerly Lesco, now bought by John Deer lawn care products division, here in Michigan.

Some of the products used commercially which are not commonly on the shelf in box stores are less dangerous and more effective than box store stuff. You can still get a hold of some of this stuff, because it is not necessarily "restricted use" just because of its absence in box stores. You might be able to get it at local/semi-rurally located ag supplies businesses, or online. Get away from Stone age products like malathion, to which so many pests have developed resistance. For a broad spectrum insecticide try bifenthrin (that's the active ingredient, a.i., and it is now sold in generic forms from many different companies. Originally was sold under label name "Talstar One"). Look for products with a.i. "mancozeb" to protect Candles on pines from various needle cast fungal diseases, and spray 3 times throughout emergence of candle growth which is when needles are typically susceptible to fungal infection. Timing is key- if you miss that window, forget about spraying them in late summer. Just wait till the following spring.There are a lot of products for a lot of purposes, and pest problems and product laws/availability vary from state to state, so I won't keep rambling about too many specifics. But if anyone has questions about specific issues, I'd be happy to make some recommendations. Around here, some insects and pine needle cast diseases are a big piece of the puzzle so that's why I mentioned mancozeb and bifenthrin. Check with a local good quality tree care company with a strong plant health care program which products they use for most common issues in your area. Then research if you can get that stuff yourself with the same a.i., or if it is registered as restricted use in your area. Good luck, and be safe!

 

[Dav4]

Hi, Im an arborist and certified pesticide applicator in Michigan and also a bonsai enthusiast. It's good to be cautious. As said already, read the whole label. That will tell you most of what you need to know. Spray early or late when there are no winds. Drift (from even a mild wind) is huge in determining whether you are treating just your target, or spreading your spray to other areas in your yard. If your sprayer has an option to use bigger droplets and lower pressure, you can reduce drift in breezy conditions and protect those chickens. I realize that most bonsai folks are using very low volume sprayers, even hand sprayers and not big commercial trucks. I use a hand sprayer too for most of my bonsai needs. Even with those, you will notice that a harder manual squeeze of the trigger will produce a finer mist, where a gentler squeeze with less pressure can get bigger, heavier droplets less prone to drift. All this said about caution, there's no need to keep animals away all day. Once product dries, you're basically good to go. Just be careful to limit product application to target only by minimizing drift, and you'll be in great shape.

If you mix in a surfactant or "spreader/sticker" your product will, like the name implies, spread and stick more efficiently to the leaf surface, and because of this you can use less product than the label-recommended mixing rate and get as good of, or better results than using full strength with no surfactant. This stuff is really cool and effective, and can save you money by letting you dial back product use. It's pretty inexpensive. I use a spreader sticker from formerly Lesco, now bought by John Deer lawn care products division, here in Michigan.

Some of the products used commercially which are not commonly on the shelf in box stores are less dangerous and more effective than box store stuff. You can still get a hold of some of this stuff, because it is not necessarily "restricted use" just because of its absence in box stores. You might be able to get it at local/semi-rurally located ag supplies businesses, or online. Get away from Stone age products like malathion, to which so many pests have developed resistance. For a broad spectrum insecticide try bifenthrin (that's the active ingredient, a.i., and it is now sold in generic forms from many different companies. Originally was sold under label name "Talstar One"). Look for products with a.i. "mancozeb" to protect Candles on pines from various needle cast fungal diseases, and spray 3 times throughout emergence of candle growth which is when needles are typically susceptible to fungal infection. Timing is key- if you miss that window, forget about spraying them in late summer. Just wait till the following spring.There are a lot of products for a lot of purposes, and pest problems and product laws/availability vary from state to state, so I won't keep rambling about too many specifics. But if anyone has questions about specific issues, I'd be happy to make some recommendations. Around here, some insects and pine needle cast diseases are a big piece of the puzzle so that's why I mentioned mancozeb and bifenthrin. Check with a local good quality tree care company with a strong plant health care program which products they use for most common issues in your area. Then research if you can get that stuff yourself with the same a.i., or if it is registered as restricted use in your area. Good luck, and be safe!

Awesome first post, carpinus! Lots of good info here.

 

[JudyB]

Yeah, where you been hiding carpinus???
Good information.

While I have the floor, I have a question if I may, just to not start a new thread on mites... I have been finding what I think are spidermites, but only in my soils. Not really on the tree proper. Is this something else perhaps? Or do they inhabit the soil. I soaked with pyrethrin, hope that gets rid of them. They seem to like the environment that the decaying fertilizer provides, they are much more prevalent in these soils. On second thought, I'll post this in another thread, as I'd like to get some suggestions on how to deal with these, never had them before.

 

[mc4mc44]

Hi, Im an arborist and certified pesticide applicator in Michigan and also a bonsai enthusiast. It's good to be cautious. As said already, read the whole label. That will tell you most of what you need to know. Spray early or late when there are no winds. Drift (from even a mild wind) is huge in determining whether you are treating just your target, or spreading your spray to other areas in your yard. If your sprayer has an option to use bigger droplets and lower pressure, you can reduce drift in breezy conditions and protect those chickens. I realize that most bonsai folks are using very low volume sprayers, even hand sprayers and not big commercial trucks. I use a hand sprayer too for most of my bonsai needs. Even with those, you will notice that a harder manual squeeze of the trigger will produce a finer mist, where a gentler squeeze with less pressure can get bigger, heavier droplets less prone to drift. All this said about caution, there's no need to keep animals away all day. Once product dries, you're basically good to go. Just be careful to limit product application to target only by minimizing drift, and you'll be in great shape.

If you mix in a surfactant or "spreader/sticker" your product will, like the name implies, spread and stick more efficiently to the leaf surface, and because of this you can use less product than the label-recommended mixing rate and get as good of, or better results than using full strength with no surfactant. This stuff is really cool and effective, and can save you money by letting you dial back product use. It's pretty inexpensive. I use a spreader sticker from formerly Lesco, now bought by John Deer lawn care products division, here in Michigan.

Some of the products used commercially which are not commonly on the shelf in box stores are less dangerous and more effective than box store stuff. You can still get a hold of some of this stuff, because it is not necessarily "restricted use" just because of its absence in box stores. You might be able to get it at local/semi-rurally located ag supplies businesses, or online. Get away from Stone age products like malathion, to which so many pests have developed resistance. For a broad spectrum insecticide try bifenthrin (that's the active ingredient, a.i., and it is now sold in generic forms from many different companies. Originally was sold under label name "Talstar One"). Look for products with a.i. "mancozeb" to protect Candles on pines from various needle cast fungal diseases, and spray 3 times throughout emergence of candle growth which is when needles are typically susceptible to fungal infection. Timing is key- if you miss that window, forget about spraying them in late summer. Just wait till the following spring.There are a lot of products for a lot of purposes, and pest problems and product laws/availability vary from state to state, so I won't keep rambling about too many specifics. But if anyone has questions about specific issues, I'd be happy to make some recommendations. Around here, some insects and pine needle cast diseases are a big piece of the puzzle so that's why I mentioned mancozeb and bifenthrin. Check with a local good quality tree care company with a strong plant health care program which products they use for most common issues in your area. Then research if you can get that stuff yourself with the same a.i., or if it is registered as restricted use in your area. Good luck, and be safe!

Thanks a lot for all this! I never even heard of a surfactant, which shows you my lack of knowledge when it comes to sprays in general, but I'll try to get a hold of some.

Yeah, where you been hiding carpinus???
Good information.

While I have the floor, I have a question if I may, just to not start a new thread on mites... I have been finding what I think are spidermites, but only in my soils. Not really on the tree proper. Is this something else perhaps? Or do they inhabit the soil. I soaked with pyrethrin, hope that gets rid of them. They seem to like the environment that the decaying fertilizer provides, they are much more prevalent in these soils. On second thought, I'll post this in another thread, as I'd like to get some suggestions on how to deal with these, never had them before.

I've never heard of mites like that, that sounds really strange. Good luck though!

 

[wireme]

Although, like jkl pointed out, a poison is a poison, so I'm not happy about the whole egg situation. I'm just going to keep them in the coop for the day I spray, they barely even notice as long as you go inside and entertain them a little bit.

That's awsome! Puppet shows? Juggling acts?

I have hens in my yard too, very fun, they are let out when I'm milling around the yard, otherwise because of the occasional neighborhood cat and other hazards they have a small run. There has been a bylaw passed here, my whole town is by law pesticide free now. So far (knock wood) I've been fine pesticide and fungicide free. Currently spraying off some aphids with soapy water. My most persistant and annoying pest so far is the cooley spruce gall adelgid on my doug firs, I've been spraying them off too but usually miss some and wind up with discoloured needles, maybe a dormant spray in the fall this year.
Have fun with the hens, leaving them inside sometimes is lightyears better than the life of a factory farm chicken, I don't even like to think about the lives of those poor animals. my girls are stuck inside for about 5 moths a year, they're super happy when the snow melts.

mp

 

[Ron Dennis]

Read this thread with great interest. I have a somewhat different concern than pesticides getting into food sources. Our home is on the top of a mountain (actually a tall hill) and my bench area is my deck which is cantilevered out over the mountain. There are significant woods close by. Mosquitoes have been a major problem this year. What have you found to be the best control for mosquitoes that will not harm my trees? We have tried the usual citronella candles, tiki torches etc.

 

[jk_lewis]

To prevent mosquitos from breeding in standing water (lot of it around here this year) BT (see my thread above) granules or do-nuts in birdbaths, fishponds, rain barrels, etc. will prevent the wrigglers from maturing into mosquitos. For those that are already flying around, Deep Woods OFF is the solution.

The BT granules or Do-nuts are available at HD, Lowes, or garden stores.