Deciduous yamadori in the US

Cutting off the breaches of that Water Elm would be the biggest mistake ever.... That tree is American all the way and it would be absolutely stupid to try and it make it look like a Japanese tree...I dont care who said it!

If you want a species that could compare to some of the Oriental Hornbeams that are collected in Europe....look no further than Water Elm....most people are just afraid to do what you need to do to collect it....walk thru the swamps.

I think the problem with collected deciduous trees in America is not the trees but the people...too lazy to go look for good ones....certainly there are a few of us willing to go but the vast majority of bonsai folks(American) would rather pay for something than go out and get dirty and tired collecting something....its the American way$$$$

I don't know enough bonsai folk other then here to truly make that call, but I think I agree with you. Though I don't like buying anything if I can avoid it. Though ume and jbp n such I do have to spend mula. I spend most every winter hunting the wood for hours, total time, trying to find great material, weather is in the bog, cliffs, or woods. I'm not tooting my own horn, I think it's just my aversion to spending high sums of $ for bonsai that Spurs me ,when I know there's great tree out there to dig up.
 
Last edited:
That tree is American all the way and it would be absolutely stupid to try and it make it look like a Japanese tree...I dont care who said it!

I don't see any difference between American and Japanese bonsai. I just see good bonsai and bad bonsai.

I like the tree in question a lot, I just think it needs a lot more refinement.
 
I like the tree in question a lot, I just think it needs a lot more refinement.

I think it comes down to different goals within bonsai. Let's not say "American" vs."Japanese" but instead replace them with terms that make more sense... something like "raw and natural" vs. "meticulously refined". The point that @johng is making is that the tree looks natural as-is. It doesn't look like a refined bonsai, it looks like a natural tree. I don't like the uber refined bonsai and would never say that you need extreme refinement in order to have good bonsai.

The water elm in question is, already, good bonsai. It is unique and doesn't fit into a mold. It doesn't have a perfectly round crown, it doesn't have extreme refinement, and there are branches that are weaker than others as @Adair M mentioned. It has unclosed wounds and the branches have imperfect taper. People can say that these characteristics are flaws but I would literally say the opposite: they are the strengths of the tree and the only things that make it interesting. Flaws and negative space can be infinitely more interesting than perfection and a helmet crown. You know what grows like the water elm we're talking about? Real trees that I see everyday. Your goal can be perfection and extreme refinement and my goal can be naturalism. We can both be right and agree to disagree.

For the most part I think perfect trees with perfect nebari, perfect taper, perfect branch selection, and perfect helmet canopies are boring. I agree with the sentiment that they are cookie-cutter. Are they pretty? Yes. Are they a horticultural feat? Yes. But they're also unoriginal and lacking in any personal artistic direction. Follow the rules and you get good bonsai. But what if I break the rules? Can I still get good bonsai? What about great bonsai? The rules have their place as an instrument of learning. I 100% feel that all neophytes should start with the "rules". But if all you ever do is follow the same rules you learned as a beginner from day 1, seriously, what's the point of the hobby? You're just proving you can execute the same thing over and over again. And if you've done it once we should expect that you should be able to do it again.

This isn't really directed at you, @Andrew Thomas , even though I quoted you, it's more of a personal rant. The same thing comes up ad nauseam on every bonsai forum. There are people who want to put a 1 year old sapling in a pot and there are people who want to practice professional level bonsai. Likewise there are many different aesthetic appeals that can coexist within the bonsai community. It's not as simple as American, European, or Japanese and it certainly isn't as simple as good or bad bonsai. My good can be your bad, and that's OK.
 
I don't see any difference between American and Japanese bonsai. I just see good bonsai and bad bonsai.

That is total BS...Open your eyes and quit being a parrot...if I bothered to show you some pics, I am quite sure you could accurately differentiate between trees from the US and Japan...so statements like that only reveal your inability to have your own thoughts.

If you are lucky, someday you will realize that anyone can be a parrot...it only requires internet access. if you want to add something to bonsai, which it is obvious that you desperately do, do something on your own, be original, be creative(how many times do I have to say it?)...or just keep building your internet master status..you are well on your way...maybe you and sorce can form a club??
 
I am an avid hiker, and can tell you from my experience roaming the Northeastern and Midwestern woods, I haven't ever come across a decidious tree worth collecting.

Yes. Your inexperience is clearly showing. That's because you roam the WOODS. Trees in a forest are seldom much for collecting; they're straight, tall, straining for light ABOVE them. It is trees on rocky balds, trees at the edges of the woods, trees on the banks of streams or lakes, etc. leaning out for light. It's trees that are favored by and browsed by deer, or cattle; exposed trees that have been damaged by fire, snow or ice.
 
Sorry...but if you haven't seen the tree you really shouldn't comment until you have...1:35 into the video


Please point out the long straight branches....please explain now that you have seen this tree exactly what your plan would be to make this tree better...



This tree has historical significance in American bonsai and is BEAUTIFUL already!

It has character and age that it lacking in 99% non-collected conifers in the US.

It is even better because it doesn't look like some Japanese cookie cutter maple.

It very much represents the species in its natural form in my experience.

In my opinion it would be a horrific shame to cut off the branches and start over...ruining a beautiful mature specimen.

The person who would cut the branches off this tree doesn't deserve to be its caretaker...period!

I'm glad I commented. Your statement I read to suggest that cutting back was somehow un-American required clarification. And thank you for sharing the video of the tree.

I think it would be fun to speculate on possible directions for the future development of the tree. But only if we can have a reasonable discourse. Your suggestion to provide an alternative seemed very "chest-bumpy". This leads me to speculate that you have a lot of emotional investment in one point of view. I think this means that there is more behind your statement than I understand so the chances of descending into the typical mud-flinging I've come to expect from this site are high if I offer a different point of view.

Scott
 
I'm pretty sure this is a picture of the water elm in question. From where I'm standing, I'd say that collected trees like this should be appreciated for their wildness and don't necessarily need the overly refined appearance of trees trained from early on. Here's a picture from last year. It's fuller now and has more ramification.View attachment 89194

This isn't the same tree John showed in his video, is it?

Scott
 
This isn't the same tree John showed in his video, is it?

Scott
It's the water elm Adair mentioned in his post that got this whole tangent rolling...this tree appears in John's video...it's in the Atlanta Bonsai Society display and John's video focuses on it for several seconds...and completely blows off my JRP which is right next to it:D.
 
You are right Scott...I do have some emotional investment in this tree and even more in the crap many of the boonies spout...particularly lately!

I have always counted you on the side of quality contributors to this site. I work hard to contribute my own content. I rarely participate in content outside of my own, but sometimes somebody needs to offer a counter balance to the brainwashed arrogant rhetoric that a few seem to think everybody should live by.

Unfortunately today, you jumped in to comment on a situation and a tree you knew nothing of.... or maybe to just defend a brother boonie, I don't know...but it felt pretty chest-bumpy to me to...
 
You are right Scott...I do have some emotional investment in this tree and even more in the crap many of the boonies spout...particularly lately!

I have always counted you on the side of quality contributors to this site. I work hard to contribute my own content. I rarely participate in content outside of my own, but sometimes somebody needs to offer a counter balance to the brainwashed arrogant rhetoric that a few seem to think everybody should live by.

Unfortunately today, you jumped in to comment on a situation and a tree you knew nothing of.... or maybe to just defend a brother boonie, I don't know...but it felt pretty chest-bumpy to me to...
Well, how do you really feel about it? :rolleyes: Seriously though, when you make a video your words are very deliberate. Your observations are voiced in a way that makes the viewer think about what you are trying to convey. You have a calming way about you and I appreciate it. So, your "emotional investment" is obvious and I for one definitely see where you're coming from.
 

And I thought you had me on igmore!

I think that tree is good to the foilage....
Which could be refined.
But the long branching makes it wonderful.

I try to only parrot stuff when you guys don't want to.
To keep newbies here learning.

If I have an OPINION, I say it's an opinion.

I really like you JohnG.
Wish it was mutual!

Sorce
 
somebody needs to offer a counter balance to the brainwashed arrogant rhetoric that a few seem to think everybody should live by.
OK, come on - don't hold back! Tell us how you really feel!

"brainwashed arrogant rhetoric", that's one of the best phrases I've seen here in a long time.

BTW, that water elm is beautiful. Would love to see it in person.
 
You are right Scott...I do have some emotional investment in this tree and even more in the crap many of the boonies spout...particularly lately!

I have always counted you on the side of quality contributors to this site. I work hard to contribute my own content. I rarely participate in content outside of my own, but sometimes somebody needs to offer a counter balance to the brainwashed arrogant rhetoric that a few seem to think everybody should live by.

Unfortunately today, you jumped in to comment on a situation and a tree you knew nothing of.... or maybe to just defend a brother boonie, I don't know...but it felt pretty chest-bumpy to me to...

I assure you that defending a fellow Boonie (although I think Andrew works with Michael, not Boon) has nothing to do with my motivation for responding. And I hope you've not found my rhetoric to be either brainwashed or arrogant even when I disagree with a point of view.

As I said before, it was the notion that I understood from your response - that cutting back and creating taper was somehow un-American that led me to comment. I've always found your contributions to be quite informative and I thought I must have misunderstood what you were saying because it is such a fundamental technique for creating branch structure in deciduous bonsai.

But I also see that there is probably too much water under the bridge to have a positive discourse about possible development directions with the tree you showed in your video. So, with respect, I'll bow out of the conversation.

Have a great day.

Scott
 
To me, American vs. Japanese doesn't really matter that much, but that could be because I am relatively new. I happen to have more of a connection with the trees on my bench that I collected myself than the ones I bought. Which is why I originally posted the question about collectible deciduous. Who knows, maybe in 50 years deciduous Bonsai in shows in America will be mostly collected in America. Trees similar to the Water Elm or even wilder (maybe a few Jap Maples thrown in).
 
To me, American vs. Japanese doesn't really matter that much, but that could be because I am relatively new. I happen to have more of a connection with the trees on my bench that I collected myself than the ones I bought. Which is why I originally posted the question about collectible deciduous. Who knows, maybe in 50 years deciduous Bonsai in shows in America will be mostly collected in America. Trees similar to the Water Elm or even wilder (maybe a few Jap Maples thrown in).

Water elm are great trees for bonsai. My only complaint is that wounds don't heal very rapidly on them. I've collected six already this season.

Scott
 
I should also add: Bill Valavanis's amazing Japanese maples were mostly all grown from air layers or seedlings.

Well, yeah, he was trained by a Japanese master. That is where his strengths are and how he was taught. Neither here nor there as to suitability of collected U.S. natives.

I may be wrong, but I don't think he's limited himself to Japanese species.
 
I think what Andrew is getting at, is the process of developing and refining deciduous trees is a much slower journey than conifers.

The reason is the wood. Conifer wood tends to be sappy, and somewhat flexible. You can bend, twist, and manipulate to your hearts content.

Deciduous are different. Their wood generally doesn't bend. At least once it's lignified. They're not called "hardwoods" for nothing! So, since you can't really use wire to shape your tree, it's developed by letting it grow out, then cut back. The time to wire deciduous trees is in spring when the new shoots are soft and plyable. Let them grow out several inches and wire them. Soon, the stem will lignify, so the shape is set. Remove the wire, and cut back. Let grow, cut back. Over and over. This builds taper in the branches. Yes, it takes much, much longer to build a good deciduous tree than with conifers.

Matt Ouwinga has some really nice maples. But other than his, you rarely see deciduous trees with the amount of ramification they've developed in Japan. It's because they've been working them for a long time. Multi-generational.

I have a friend with a very nice collected Water Elm. It's a couple hundred years old. He's shown it a good bit here in the southeast recently. Nice trunk, but the branches don't match the trunk. Kathy Shaner has advised him to take it off the show circuit, and do a severe cut back so he can regrow the branches with better taper. If he does this, it would be better for the tree in the long run, but it would take about 5 years before it would be showable again.

I don't really think that is what Andrew was getting at...
 
Ok so here is my two cents worth.
Red Pine? Are we talking Pinus Densiflora? If we are it is one of the most used bonsai material here in Korea and in some parts of Japan. Works great, but reacts like a sensitive woman when you work with it, as long as you're nice should be fine.
Some Gorgeous Red Pines
I really hate to break it to some folks, not trying to take sides here but, in China, Korea and yes in Japan they DO in fact collect deciduous trees for bonsai however you might not hear that much about it, why?
In Japan and Korea in recent years laws have been changed to stop people pillaging the forests, it hasn't actually done anything (Collected Hornbeams fetch a very high price in Korea, just saying) but people are less willing to admit that the tree is Yamadori because they risk getting in trouble.
Next point, the typical bonsai is a Pine or a Juniper for many people, many people want those trees, supply and demand....Pines mean long life and prosperity in East Asia...they're a popular gift......So from a commercial aspect pines and juni's make more money and are much easier to contort into wonderful shapes. Deciduous should strictly by the measure of "purists" be pruned into shape with essentially no wiring (though I know very few people actually skilled enough to do this through only pruning).
Maybe that is why certain people feel that they don't collect trees in these countries, which is erroneous.
Collected and well developed Yamadori are actually in general considered more valuable and wounds add character. Time is money though so mostly only very serious and very rich collectors can afford them.
Gorgeous collected deciduous treesssss
Right so my opinion might not count but.....I live here so I kind of know..............just sayin'

I may point out that trees native to an area often respond better to the harsh treatment that is required to become a bonsai as they are actually from that area. Even if an imported tree comes from a similar climate its just not the same as actually being a species which comes from that area. What do people think? Did the Japanese import trees? Did the Koreans? Did the Chinese? Not really, maybe one or two Kings, in general they used natives........natives are gooooood........use....natives......na.....tiv......es.......natives.........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................natives

If you read the histories of some of the more notable Korean Hornbeam in Japanese bonsai nurseries, as well as a few other deciduous species in Japanese collections, it's pretty clear they were dug from the wild, not grown out.
 
Back
Top Bottom