Deciduous yamadori in the US

[Andrew Robson]

I should also add: Bill Valavanis's amazing Japanese maples were mostly all grown from air layers or seedlings.

 

[Shima]

I've been scouting for trees on a farm in southwest Michigan. Lots of interesting species, but the soils are sandy and deep, which means most trees have deep tap roots. For nice bark, bur oak is ideal, but unfortunately bur oak have roots that go deep. I'm growing a couple seedlings, in 3 gallon nursery cans. Let them get to 5 feet, then chop to 4 inches, they are in the second cycle of growing out then chopping back. I let roots escape the pot over summer, then chop the escaped roots in fall. Time will tell if they submit. Big plus for bur oak is their rough bark, and ZONE 3 hardy. Too early to say much about leaf reduction or ramification. Won't worry about that until trunks are over 4 inches diameter a couple inches above the nebari. I don't expect results in less than 10 years. Winter protection last year was none, just left them in the middle of the yard, on the ground. full sun, fully exposed to winter wind, and they did fine. The advantage of working with a tree hardy to 2 zones colder than where you are at.

Bark of red oak is not as rough as bur oak. I think white oak is a good species to try also.

I do have an area where the water table is just inches below the soil. I need to stick a spade in the ground, but in this area trees might be shallow rooted. Need to check it out. Maybe a a spot to get an older tree without having to dig to the center of the earth. I have all winter to explore.

Hey Leo-san, have you tried ground layering? Also helps to get the tree strong with slow release fert the year before surgery. I don't know about other oaks but I cut the tap root (bought a cordless recipro saw just for that), sat it in damp sand and roots crept into the sand in no time.

 

[mattspinniken]

I really like Bill V's Japenese Maples but also appreciate more wild looking trees. I think the best collected Deciduous are collected for thier wild nature and then grown out and refined over many years.

Google Walter Pall's Fairy Tale Style for some examples of collected deciduous that have areas of inverted taper, wounds that need healing, not perfect nebari etc.

 

[M. Frary]

[
Larch, jack pine, American red pine, willows, birches, both hornbeams - Carpinus and Ostrya, deciduous native Ilex, Amelanchier (serviceberry), native hawthorns, oaks, dogwoods, alders, sumacs, persimmon, and more should all be looked at for bonsai if you are in Michigan, IL or Wisc.

I don't consider the red pine because of needle length,the willows,birches,alders and sumac because the are poor subjects for bonsai.
Elms and Hawthorns are the best and easiest decidious trees to collect in Michigan.

 

[Adair M]

I think what Andrew is getting at, is the process of developing and refining deciduous trees is a much slower journey than conifers.

The reason is the wood. Conifer wood tends to be sappy, and somewhat flexible. You can bend, twist, and manipulate to your hearts content.

Deciduous are different. Their wood generally doesn't bend. At least once it's lignified. They're not called "hardwoods" for nothing! So, since you can't really use wire to shape your tree, it's developed by letting it grow out, then cut back. The time to wire deciduous trees is in spring when the new shoots are soft and plyable. Let them grow out several inches and wire them. Soon, the stem will lignify, so the shape is set. Remove the wire, and cut back. Let grow, cut back. Over and over. This builds taper in the branches. Yes, it takes much, much longer to build a good deciduous tree than with conifers.

Matt Ouwinga has some really nice maples. But other than his, you rarely see deciduous trees with the amount of ramification they've developed in Japan. It's because they've been working them for a long time. Multi-generational.

I have a friend with a very nice collected Water Elm. It's a couple hundred years old. He's shown it a good bit here in the southeast recently. Nice trunk, but the branches don't match the trunk. Kathy Shaner has advised him to take it off the show circuit, and do a severe cut back so he can regrow the branches with better taper. If he does this, it would be better for the tree in the long run, but it would take about 5 years before it would be showable again.

 

[BunjaeKorea]

Ok so here is my two cents worth.
Red Pine? Are we talking Pinus Densiflora? If we are it is one of the most used bonsai material here in Korea and in some parts of Japan. Works great, but reacts like a sensitive woman when you work with it, as long as you're nice should be fine.
Some Gorgeous Red Pines
I really hate to break it to some folks, not trying to take sides here but, in China, Korea and yes in Japan they DO in fact collect deciduous trees for bonsai however you might not hear that much about it, why?
In Japan and Korea in recent years laws have been changed to stop people pillaging the forests, it hasn't actually done anything (Collected Hornbeams fetch a very high price in Korea, just saying) but people are less willing to admit that the tree is Yamadori because they risk getting in trouble.
Next point, the typical bonsai is a Pine or a Juniper for many people, many people want those trees, supply and demand....Pines mean long life and prosperity in East Asia...they're a popular gift......So from a commercial aspect pines and juni's make more money and are much easier to contort into wonderful shapes. Deciduous should strictly by the measure of "purists" be pruned into shape with essentially no wiring (though I know very few people actually skilled enough to do this through only pruning).
Maybe that is why certain people feel that they don't collect trees in these countries, which is erroneous.
Collected and well developed Yamadori are actually in general considered more valuable and wounds add character. Time is money though so mostly only very serious and very rich collectors can afford them.
Gorgeous collected deciduous treesssss
Right so my opinion might not count but.....I live here so I kind of know..............just sayin'

I may point out that trees native to an area often respond better to the harsh treatment that is required to become a bonsai as they are actually from that area. Even if an imported tree comes from a similar climate its just not the same as actually being a species which comes from that area. What do people think? Did the Japanese import trees? Did the Koreans? Did the Chinese? Not really, maybe one or two Kings, in general they used natives........natives are gooooood........use....natives......na.....tiv......es.......natives.........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................natives

 

[Vin]

Works great, but reacts like a sensitive woman when you work with it, as long as you're nice should be fine.

That one belongs on some "Quotes" page but I'm not commenting on it. No way, not me, ixnay, not going to happen

 

[BunjaeKorea]

That one belongs on some "Quotes" page but I'm not commenting on it. No way, not me, ixnay, not going to happen

Lol, hey sensitive woman and bonsai have a lot in common! Plus because they are sensitive you do know that not commenting is WORSE than commenting.....
What you don't say is worse.......you men are all the same!

 

[Vin]

Lol, hey sensitive woman and bonsai have a lot in common! Plus because they are sensitive you do know that not commenting is WORSE than commenting.....
What you don't say is worse.......you men are all the same!

What goes on in the workshop stays in the workshop. Please elaborate while you're digging the hole for me to jump in.

 

[Adair M]

Ok so here is my two cents worth.
Red Pine? Are we talking Pinus Densiflora? If we are it is one of the most used bonsai material here in Korea and in some parts of Japan. Works great, but reacts like a sensitive woman when you work with it, as long as you're nice should be fine.
Some Gorgeous Red Pines
I really hate to break it to some folks, not trying to take sides here but, in China, Korea and yes in Japan they DO in fact collect deciduous trees for bonsai however you might not hear that much about it, why?
In Japan and Korea in recent years laws have been changed to stop people pillaging the forests, it hasn't actually done anything (Collected Hornbeams fetch a very high price in Korea, just saying) but people are less willing to admit that the tree is Yamadori because they risk getting in trouble.
Next point, the typical bonsai is a Pine or a Juniper for many people, many people want those trees, supply and demand....Pines mean long life and prosperity in East Asia...they're a popular gift......So from a commercial aspect pines and juni's make more money and are much easier to contort into wonderful shapes. Deciduous should strictly by the measure of "purists" be pruned into shape with essentially no wiring (though I know very few people actually skilled enough to do this through only pruning).
Maybe that is why certain people feel that they don't collect trees in these countries, which is erroneous.
Collected and well developed Yamadori are actually in general considered more valuable and wounds add character. Time is money though so mostly only very serious and very rich collectors can afford them.
Gorgeous collected deciduous treesssss
Right so my opinion might not count but.....I live here so I kind of know..............just sayin'

I may point out that trees native to an area often respond better to the harsh treatment that is required to become a bonsai as they are actually from that area. Even if an imported tree comes from a similar climate its just not the same as actually being a species which comes from that area. What do people think? Did the Japanese import trees? Did the Koreans? Did the Chinese? Not really, maybe one or two Kings, in general they used natives........natives are gooooood........use....natives......na.....tiv......es.......natives.........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................natives

We have a native "red" pine here, too. Not the same as JRP. The needles twist.

And you're right about taking a tree away from its native environment. It might not do as well as it would back home.

 

[BunjaeKorea]

We have a native "red" pine here, too. Not the same as JRP. The needles twist.

And you're right about taking a tree away from its native environment. It might not do as well as it would back home.

Thanks for the clarification. Do you know the Latin name by any chance? Would like to look it up.

 

[BunjaeKorea]

What goes on in the workshop stays in the workshop. Please elaborate while you're digging the hole for me to jump in.

Hehehe are we talking a six foot deep hole here?

 

[Vin]

Hehehe are we talking a six foot deep hole here?

That should just about do it.

 

[BunjaeKorea]

That should just about do it.

Only problem is that after digging I will be the one in the hole with you standing on the outside.........I see your trick, not digging my own grave ! Almost got me.......lol

 

[johng]

I think what Andrew is getting at, is the process of developing and refining deciduous trees is a much slower journey than conifers.

The reason is the wood. Conifer wood tends to be sappy, and somewhat flexible. You can bend, twist, and manipulate to your hearts content.

Deciduous are different. Their wood generally doesn't bend. At least once it's lignified. They're not called "hardwoods" for nothing! So, since you can't really use wire to shape your tree, it's developed by letting it grow out, then cut back. The time to wire deciduous trees is in spring when the new shoots are soft and plyable. Let them grow out several inches and wire them. Soon, the stem will lignify, so the shape is set. Remove the wire, and cut back. Let grow, cut back. Over and over. This builds taper in the branches. Yes, it takes much, much longer to build a good deciduous tree than with conifers.

Matt Ouwinga has some really nice maples. But other than his, you rarely see deciduous trees with the amount of ramification they've developed in Japan. It's because they've been working them for a long time. Multi-generational.

I have a friend with a very nice collected Water Elm. It's a couple hundred years old. He's shown it a good bit here in the southeast recently. Nice trunk, but the branches don't match the trunk. Kathy Shaner has advised him to take it off the show circuit, and do a severe cut back so he can regrow the branches with better taper. If he does this, it would be better for the tree in the long run, but it would take about 5 years before it would be showable again.

Cutting off the breaches of that Water Elm would be the biggest mistake ever.... That tree is American all the way and it would be absolutely stupid to try and it make it look like a Japanese tree...I dont care who said it!

If you want a species that could compare to some of the Oriental Hornbeams that are collected in Europe....look no further than Water Elm....most people are just afraid to do what you need to do to collect it....walk thru the swamps.

I think the problem with collected deciduous trees in America is not the trees but the people...too lazy to go look for good ones....certainly there are a few of us willing to go but the vast majority of bonsai folks(American) would rather pay for something than go out and get dirty and tired collecting something....its the American way$$$$

 

[markyscott]

Cutting off the breaches of that Water Elm would be the biggest mistake ever.... That tree is American all the way and it would be absolutely stupid to try and it make it look like a Japanese tree...I dont care who said it!

I haven't seen the tree in question, but if I understand Adair's point the trunk has movement and taper but the branches don't. So I'm curious, what is "American" about straight branches without movement or taper? And what is it about tapering branches with movement and tight ramification that is distinctly "Japanese"? To me, straight branches without taper are the mark of a youthful tree. I've cut back hard the branches on many of my trees because of exactly this issue.

It is true that the branches on a lot of Japanese bonsai have it whereas a lot of American bonsai don't. But I always attributed that difference to skill and years of patient and dedicated effort rather than a cultural thing. Or are you objecting to something else?

Scott

 

[johng]

Sorry...but if you haven't seen the tree you really shouldn't comment until you have...1:35 into the video

Please point out the long straight branches....please explain now that you have seen this tree exactly what your plan would be to make this tree better...



This tree has historical significance in American bonsai and is BEAUTIFUL already!

It has character and age that it lacking in 99% non-collected conifers in the US.

It is even better because it doesn't look like some Japanese cookie cutter maple.

It very much represents the species in its natural form in my experience.

In my opinion it would be a horrific shame to cut off the branches and start over...ruining a beautiful mature specimen.

The person who would cut the branches off this tree doesn't deserve to be its caretaker...period!

 

[Dav4]

I'm pretty sure this is a picture of the water elm in question. From where I'm standing, I'd say that collected trees like this should be appreciated for their wildness and don't necessarily need the overly refined appearance of trees trained from early on. Here's a picture from last year. It's fuller now and has more ramification.

 

[Adair M]

That's the tree. Perhaps I overstated the cut back needed. The lower right portion of the canopy is weak. And won't fill out unless the canopy above it is reduced to allow light to get to the branch.

It is very nice tree.

 

[Vin]

SH!$#! I want one now. I'm supposed to be cutting back.