Imported trees coming to the US

[quietobserver]

Brussel ships everything FEDEX and the businesses get enormous volume discounts, so his savings air freighting from Japan are significant compared to your small importers. No clue what his discount is, but for perspective the company I work for has a volume discount of 60-87% off list price with FEDEX. Granted we ship medical devices to 187 countries around the world so we're likely on the extreme end. So bringing it in isn't cheap, but cost-wise he's gotta be in good shape relatively speaking.

 

[A Random User]

"Pre-selling" trees is no different than ordering something from Amazon. You pay up front, expect the product to arrive safely, you get your $$ back if you don't like it. Simple.

What you have done is inject a sly judgmental element into this kind of transaction. Your post contains a lot of passive aggressive statements about art and people willing to buy one of these trees. "Artistic types," for instance, do the work themselves--which is BS.

People who buy imports are artistic. Many are even superior artists. For those unfamiliar with them, Imported trees require work and artistic vision, just not the same kinds of work and artistic vision that you use on your trees. Imports don't spring from their shipping crates without flaw. Most require more than a fine tuning with carefully considered work.

In a sense their owners have more at stake artistically than you do. They've just plunked down $1,000 or more for the tree before them. If they screw it up, they're out that money. If you screw up a collected tree (if you collected it yourself or bought it from a hobbyist buddy, the most you're out is $100 or so)>

Also FWIW, there are those that might consider a tree designed, owned and worked by one person as a flaw. Bonsai has always been a cumulative artwork, with the tree absorbing and exhibiting the work of many into a single entity. One-person bonsai can have serious blind spots...

Yeah, not arguing over pre-buying trees. I think I have made my position quite clear.
What is it you want me to say?
That because they have chosen to do this that it is right or wrong? It doesn't make a difference really either way... All I have said from the very start of this conversation is that if these trees have just been imported, that one seeking to perhaps obtain one should make sure they are in good status. This is true no matter who might be doing the selling. Yes, Matt is reputable and so is Brussels, but with Bonsai there is often very little recourse when a tree dies, so it is up to the purchaser to be responsible and do there homework. Don't see a problem with this.

It was then pointed out that they are being put up for pre-sale to solve this issue. Ok... cool, not necessarily a normal approach, but hey why not. To be honest sounds smart. To which, I raised the question of how many folks would be interested. Then a lot of folks chimed in about how life is like this and listed the ways. .. cool, however still not convinced a lot of folks would be down with this. The paying a lot of money to not walk out with a tree in their hands. But, does it really matter, not really.

Then you brought up how artistic folks don't understand biz... ok, yes... I sure that some who do not do it for a living don't, because they don't need too, would they?

Now as to the injection of my own personal views as you say regarding imports... is this not what this whole discussion is all about? The troubles and the process folks are willing to go through to obtain a better piece of material? Yes, some are talented who might throw down dough, others perhaps not, makes no difference really, other than folks drive and determination and what I would refer to as a rat race to be better than others. For me... just found it humorous. Just my views... don't like it that's cool too. But this is forum to come post these views. I see a lot of folks concerning themselves with obtaining something someone else has created, and less folks concerning themselves about learning to create these types of trees themselves. For me, like it or not, I think this is sad that we put such importance on someone bringing in material from some far off land, that folks are willing to go through such trouble for.

I am allowed to think and say this... for it is the whole point of having a discussion, everyone here is posting their take and views regarding the subject. You can call it sly, passive agressive... "BS", what ever... my post is no different than one saying this is great. Just an opinion. One could say your comments regarding what you posted towards Vance ' s trees might be "judgmental"... I not saying they are however, because I am critiquing your opinion.
Thanks!

 

[carp]

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...b3cbb&node=7:5.1.1.1.6&rgn=div5#sp7.5.319.xx9

Just gonna drop this here.

 

[Adair M]

It's kind of funny to see what happens when folks used to seeing the artistic side of bonsai get a glimpse of the business side. Bonsai from Japan are more of a commodity that the precious things we imagine. YEs, they are finely crafted and well done, but ultimately, they're a business. Seeing a 100 year old pine stuffed into a shipping crate without a pot with three dozen other 100 year old bonsai can be jarring.

I don't know if it still happens, but back in the 90's there were stories of growers in Japan burning entire fields of old plum bonsai and other species because there wasn't a demand for them and there were too many--which ultimately brought prices down. Burning them was preferable to caring for them...

They're doing that now with the JWP grafted onto JBP with wire embedded in the trunk.

 

[Adair M]

Sawgrass,

Some trees will be better than others. The best trees will get snapped up quickly. The ones that are left over will be available for procrastinators.

I've seen pictures of some of the trees. Some are better than others...I didn't see a single one that I consider "show worthy". These are trained trees, with great potential. Large bases, good taper and nebari, just not fully ramified. In Japan, these are readily available to buy.

 

[Nybonsai12]

Large bases, good taper and nebari, just not fully ramified.

Which would take decades to develop for most of the species being offered, hence the anticipated price point. I think most people seeing the anticipated high pricing on these trees are forgetful that many years of development went into these just to get them to the point of needing some ramification over the course of a few seasons. That's what you are paying for, the skipping of many, many years of development.

 

[rockm]

Sadly, I think there is a group of people who will always look at imported trees as high-priced material that only snobs can buy. They think that bonsai is mostly inauthentic if it's not made completely from the bottom up from seedlings they raised in their backyards, or cranked out of the ground in the woods. They think people that pay more than $500 for a tree are mostly poseurs intent on forcing them out of bonsai with their "Japanese" trees.

I've also found that a lot of the people who look down their noses at imported bonsai tend to have an attitude with a thin residue of envy on it. Presented with the chance with a tree in front of them and enough cash to swing it, they'd buy one--they just wouldn't tell anyone.

FWIW, a lot of imported material, like a lot of old imported Japanese pots, ISN'T all that expensive. Additionally, the price tag on them includes TIME and TECHNIQUE that aren't available here in the U.S. or Europe or anywhere outside of Japan, China or Taiwan. Well, YEAH that black pine is $1,200, but it's 80 years old and has been worked BY SOMEONE WHO KNOWS WTF THEY'RE DOING WITH IT and hasn't made dire rookie mistakes on it 25 years ago that can never really be changed. There is a fee involved for expertise...

When I first started bonsai , I used to think the fools who paid up front for trees from Japan were just snobs hoping to impress someone..

I've changed my mind a bit over the years, though. I've not seen people who buy imported trees being show offs (for the most part). The majority of those tree are quietly sitting in some hobbyists' backyard being appreciated and worked on by their owners.

 

[A Random User]

Sadly, I think there is a group of people who will always look at imported trees as high-priced material that only snobs can buy. They think that bonsai is mostly inauthentic if it's not made completely from the bottom up from seedlings they raised in their backyards, or cranked out of the ground in the woods. They think people that pay more than $500 for a tree are mostly poseurs intent on forcing them out of bonsai with their "Japanese" trees.

I've also found that a lot of the people who look down their noses at imported bonsai tend to have an attitude with a thin residue of envy on it. Presented with the chance with a tree in front of them and enough cash to swing it, they'd buy one--they just wouldn't tell anyone.

FWIW, a lot of imported material, like a lot of old imported Japanese pots, ISN'T all that expensive. Additionally, the price tag on them includes TIME and TECHNIQUE that aren't available here in the U.S. or Europe or anywhere outside of Japan, China or Taiwan. Well, YEAH that black pine is $1,200, but it's 80 years old and has been worked BY SOMEONE WHO KNOWS WTF THEY'RE DOING WITH IT. There is a fee involved for expertise...

When I first started bonsai , I used to think the fools who paid up front for trees from Japan were just snobs hoping to impress someone..

I've changed my mind a bit over the years, though. I've not seen people who buy imported trees being show offs (for the most part). The majority of those tree are quietly sitting in some hobbyists' backyard being appreciated and worked on by their owners.

Not sure who those group of folks might be?
The vast majority of imported trees actually cost pennies and are what other groups of folks might call Mallsai.
I will leave the snobby view to those who use the term.
I also will not comment on the fact that your post seems very Judgmental as well as very presumptuous to how others might view Imported trees. To be frank, I don't know why I, or anyone else here even bother to post anything here at the Nut, you could just post for us, seeing that you clearly are in the loop regarding peoples views?

I am currently working on building a rock planting and have posted a thread... seeing that you know what I should think, perhaps you might like to come post for me so, that I get what is in my head correct. Or better yet, we could just go back to the days of you telling me I should be humble, because I merely have a difference of view than you.
Thanks!

 

[milehigh_7]

For me, it's not about snobs or looking down your nose, it's about the part of Bonsai that you enjoy. Some just like to have showpieces to exhibit and there is nothing wrong with that. The arts never advance without patrons. Some are good at creating their own and some enjoy the propagating and growing. Some like me suck at all of it but love trees and enjoy the sparkling company here at the Nut House. ;-)

 

[rockm]

"I also will not comment on the fact that your post seems very Judgmental. "
Yet, you have commented...

"The vast majority of imported trees actually cost pennies and are what other groups of folks might call Mallsai."
Don't know what this has to do with what we're talking about, since it's pretty apparent we're not talking about mallsai.

"I will leave the snobby view to those who use the term."

Not sure who those group of folks might be?
The vast majority of imported trees actually cost pennies and are what other groups of folks might call Mallsai.
I will leave the snobby view to those who use the term.
I also will not comment on the fact that your post seems very Judgmental as well as very presumptuous to how others might view Imported trees. To be frank, I don't know why I, or anyone else here even bother to post anything here at the Nut, you could just post for us, seeing that you clearly are in the loop regarding peoples views?

I am currently working on building a rock planting and have posted a thread... seeing that you know what I should think, perhaps you might like to come post for me so, that I get what is in my head correct. Or better yet, we could just go back to the days of you telling me I should be humble, because I merely have a difference of view than you.
Thanks!

Wow, lighten up Francis. Despite what you think everything is not all about you.

The attitude you're giving off isn't new. I've seen it more than a few times elsewhere and offline. I'm sure others have too, especially those that have imported trees.

 

[Adair M]

One thing that gets overlooked: to get trees like this takes time. I now know enough how to create trunks like these, but it would probably take the test of my lifetime to start a new tree and get it to the point these are now. If I want to advance a tree farther, in the little time I have left, I have to aquire more advanced stock. I simply don't have enough remaining years.

I'm not saying that I'm going to buy one of these trees. I haven't seen the pricing. But they appear to be a great opportunity to aquire some very nice material.

By the way, Kokofu pictures are out. Everyone should see what the Japanese are up to now!

 

[Dav4]

For me, it's not about snobs or looking down your nose, it's about the part of Bonsai that you enjoy. Some just like to have showpieces to exhibit and there is nothing wrong with that. The arts never advance without patrons. Some are good at creating their own and some enjoy the propagating and growing. Some like me suck at all of it but love trees and enjoy the sparkling company here at the Nut House. ;-)

Exactly! I have a few very nice imported trees that are, for me, the jewels in my collection....but I also have more then a few trees I'm developing from seedlings, cuttings, personally collected material, etc., and I'm really looking forward to seeing how these grow and improve over then next decade or two. It's all good, imo.

 

[A Random User]

"I also will not comment on the fact that your post seems very Judgmental. "
Yet, you have commented...

"The vast majority of imported trees actually cost pennies and are what other groups of folks might call Mallsai."
Don't know what this has to do with what we're talking about, since it's pretty apparent we're not talking about mallsai.

"I will leave the snobby view to those who use the term."

Wow, lighten up Francis. Despite what you think everything is not all about you.

The attitude you're giving off isn't new. I've seen it more than a few times elsewhere and offline. I'm sure others have too, especially those that have imported trees.

Yeah, I was being you...
I was telling folks how they act, while doing the same thing.
Now, you see how much sense it makes to the rest of us?

 

[A Random User]

One thing that gets overlooked: to get trees like this takes time. I now know enough how to create trunks like these, but it would probably take the test of my lifetime to start a new tree and get it to the point these are now. If I want to advance a tree farther, in the little time I have left, I have to aquire more advanced stock. I simply don't have enough remaining years.

I'm not saying that I'm going to buy one of these trees. I haven't seen the pricing. But they appear to be a great opportunity to aquire some very nice material.

By the way, Kokofu pictures are out. Everyone should see what the Japanese are up to now!

As normal, Dave has gone off on a tangent of self proclaimed righteousness...

I have never had a problem with folks buying an import and expanding on it and doing their Artistic thing, despite the fact that Dave appearantly is a very bad mind reader... and likes to put words in people's mouths...

So, I will clearly state what it is I have a problem with so that Dave will perhaps get it right, doubt it, but hey... it is the notion that far to often I see people looking to buy trees such as imports or running off to Seattle to by a piece of material, only to then turn around and take it to workshops, demos, etc... to have some master style their tree. When their tree needs further work, they then take it back to the next event.

Fine, if this is what folks want to do, but far to often I feel as though there are folks not really taking the time to learn how to do it themselves. So, they have a really nice tree, win all kinds of awards, yet don't really know how to do the work.

For me this is a problem. And is sad... it is as though having a really nice tree is of more importance than learning how to do the work first. And I feel that often a system of importing trees such as these only perpetuates this issue. Where some folks, not all of course... but from my vantage a good enough proportion of folks seem to be guilty of this.

Now one could argue that who cares, it is their money, and I would agree... however, it does no one any good to advance the issue, as I feel it does when people know they can just buy a really nice piece of material, and do this.

All I have ever said and will continue to say regarding buying really nice stock, whether import or not, is fine... buy it but also learn how to do the work as well. I am not saying this because of being snobby as numb nuts would like to portray... quite the contrary, I am merely saying it because one will always be better at doing the art if they learn themselves how to do it. And they are only cheating themselves...

Every time one of these threads pops up, I just cringe... cause I see folks running off like sheep to buy them and there are like a million oh my gods, and folks dueling and tripping over themselves to try and obtain one. Even yourself said something to the effect that those who preorder will get the good trees and those who wait will basically get to pick from the dreggs... i am paraphrasing of course... i know.. but, there are going to be more... and someone will always be importing them, so calm down people, let's not all blow our wads at one time.

Side note... how is that Import Juniper coming along, that you obtained from an individual who clearly didn't know what they were doing? The shimpaku on a rock, hopefully well, would like to see an update soon!

 

[parhamr]

wat

 

[Dav4]

As normal, Dave has gone off on a tangent of self proclaimed righteousness...

Uhhh, that was Adair....I think??

 

[Nybonsai12]

Ugh....not again

 

[carp]

Again.

 

[DariusB]

As normal, Dave has gone off on a tangent of self proclaimed righteousness...

I have never had a problem with folks buying an import and expanding on it and doing their Artistic thing, despite the fact that Dave appearantly is a very bad mind reader... and likes to put words in people's mouths...

So, I will clearly state what it is I have a problem with so that Dave will perhaps get it right, doubt it, but hey... it is the notion that far to often I see people looking to buy trees such as imports or running off to Seattle to by a piece of material, only to then turn around and take it to workshops, demos, etc... to have some master style their tree. When their tree needs further work, they then take it back to the next event.

Fine, if this is what folks want to do, but far to often I feel as though there are folks not really taking the time to learn how to do it themselves. So, they have a really nice tree, win all kinds of awards, yet don't really know how to do the work.

For me this is a problem. And is sad... it is as though having a really nice tree is of more importance than learning how to do the work first. And I feel that often a system of importing trees such as these only perpetuates this issue. Where some folks, not all of course... but from my vantage a good enough proportion of folks seem to be guilty of this.

Now one could argue that who cares, it is their money, and I would agree... however, it does no one any good to advance the issue, as I feel it does when people know they can just buy a really nice piece of material, and do this.

All I have ever said and will continue to say regarding buying really nice stock, whether import or not, is fine... buy it but also learn how to do the work as well. I am not saying this because of being snobby as numb nuts would like to portray... quite the contrary, I am merely saying it because one will always be better at doing the art if they learn themselves how to do it. And they are only cheating themselves...

Every time one of these threads pops up, I just cringe... cause I see folks running off like sheep to buy them and there are like a million oh my gods, and folks dueling and tripping over themselves to try and obtain one. Even yourself said something to the effect that those who preorder will get the good trees and those who wait will basically get to pick from the dreggs... i am paraphrasing of course... i know.. but, there are going to be more... and someone will always be importing them, so calm down people, let's not all blow our wads at one time.

Side note... how is that Import Juniper coming along, that you obtained from an individual who clearly didn't know what they were doing? The shimpaku on a rock, hopefully well, would like to see an update soon!

First post here just to say, this whole reply reminds me of one of those Honda drivers that says I'll build the block and put a 100 shot of NOS on it and smoke your Ferrari... Still a Honda.

 

[Adair M]

Uhhh, that was Adair....I think??

Self proclaimed righteousness??? Who me?

I'm just a bonsai freak who's survived two bouts of cancer and figures he needs to enjoy bonsai now!

Stacey... About this stuff about everyone needs to learn to make their own... How about those scrolls you sell? Taking your logic, people shouldn't buy your scrolls, they should learn to make their own!

Look, there's many ways to enjoy the bonsai hobby.

Some like to start from scratch. Some like to buy finished trees and have others take care of them. And everywhere in between. It's all good.

The Itoigawa is doing fine. There's still way too many branches, but now that it can get light in the interior, it should start backbudding. It's still dormant. We had a bit of snow yesterday!