Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
America is a diverse nation and right now it would seem a divided one.
Donald Trump.
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watchndsky
Chumono
yeh, the media racebaiting combined with hillary pandering to the minority voter and complaining about white privilege really doesnt help the situation any either.
fredman
Masterpiece
The picture that was painted to the world of the post Obama America, was/is that of a nation that has mostly overcame its race tensions. I saw it portrayed in politics, movies etc. Is that the reality on the ground? Has race relations changed as much, or is it what it always was, only with some improvement...?
Haven grown up in South Africa, I know full well the effort that has to be made from both sides, in order to truly meet in the middle
watchndsky
Chumono
The picture that was painted to the world of the post Obama America, was/is that of a nation that has mostly overcame its race tensions. I saw it portrayed in politics, movies etc. Is that the reality on the ground? Has race relations changed as much, or is it what it always was, only with some improvement...?
Haven grown up in South Africa, I know full well the effort that has to be made from both sides, in order to truly meet in the middle
i can tell you (from my experience) that its leaps an bounds from where relations were when i was young. workforces are more diverse, communities are more diverse, and many corporations make it a point to champion diversity inclusion models in their workplace (although you can argue this is more to avoid lawsuits than more altruistic gestures).
but if you turned on the news the last few weeks, this is not the impression you would get and thats why i made my comment regarding the media.
make no mistake - there is still intolerance and ignorance to combat, but its much better than in the 80's and worlds better than the 60's.
all i can tell you is what my experience has been. ive grown up in the south where there has historically been alot of racial tension, but most people really just dont care about race the way they did decades ago.
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All too easy to blame the media...
They are only reporting what Clowns are saying and doing...
They just happen to be really busy as of lately.
Don't think this is their fault... perhaps the idiots that say and do stupid stuff?
There is a reason why Trump is on the news every night.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
It was a great moment when Obama, a black man, was elected President. The message being sent that America finally has grown beyond Jim Crow and seperatism and was embracing its ethnic diversity. Boy were we wrong. From the beginning Obama has been playing the race card at every opportunity. Where race relations had grown to where most blacks were looked on by most Americans and one of the guys, Obama saw a racist behind every garbage can and exploited that rhetoric to the point we have seen cops being gunned down by black men for the most part, and it's all the Presidents fault. I know I am going to hear it: There are some bad cops. Yes there are but there are some bad black men and you don't see whitey shooting down balck guys just because they are black guys. Can't say that of those who want to kill cops.The picture that was painted to the world of the post Obama America, was/is that of a nation that has mostly overcame its race tensions. I saw it portrayed in politics, movies etc. Is that the reality on the ground? Has race relations changed as much, or is it what it always was, only with some improvement...?
Haven grown up in South Africa, I know full well the effort that has to be made from both sides, in order to truly meet in the middle
GroveKeeper
Shohin
It's all Obama's fault? You need to chill with hyperbole.
LanceMac10
Imperial Masterpiece
Most have forgotten the "Beer Summit"....ya' know, when he called the Cambridge MA. police officer "stupid"?
The Cambridge police acted stupidly in arresting somebody when there was already proof that they were in their own home. . . . What I think we know – separate and apart from this incident – is that there is a long history in their country of African-Americans and Latinos being stopped by law enforcement disproportionately, and that’s just a fact.” – President Obama on Gates’ arrest.
Interesting comment to reflect upon. Especially considering the growing animosity towards law enforcement.
The Cambridge police acted stupidly in arresting somebody when there was already proof that they were in their own home. . . . What I think we know – separate and apart from this incident – is that there is a long history in their country of African-Americans and Latinos being stopped by law enforcement disproportionately, and that’s just a fact.” – President Obama on Gates’ arrest.
Interesting comment to reflect upon. Especially considering the growing animosity towards law enforcement.
watchndsky
Chumono
generally - this is a left leaning site but i was suprised to see the following article
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/07/20/the-ferguson-effect/
By Heather Mac Donald July 20 at 8:36 AM
The most controversial aspect of my new book, “The War on Cops,” is my claim that violent crime is up in many American cities because officers are backing off of proactive policing. I have dubbed this double phenomenon of de-policing and the resulting crime increase the “Ferguson effect,” picking up on a phrase first used by St. Louis’s police chief.
Violence began increasing in the second half of 2014, after two decades of decline. The Major Cities Chiefs Association convened an emergency session in August 2015 to discuss the double-digit surge in violent felonies besetting its member police departments.
The violence continued into fall 2015, prompting Attorney General Loretta Lynch to summon more than 100 police chiefs, mayors and federal prosecutors in another emergency meeting to strategize over the rising homicide rates.
Arrests, summonses and pedestrian stops were dropping in many cities, where data on such police activity were available. Arrests in St. Louis City and County, for example, fell by a third after the shooting of Michael Brown. Misdemeanor drug arrests fell by two-thirds in Baltimore through November 2015.
Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel told Lynch that his officers were going “fetal”: “They have pulled back from the ability to interdict,” he said. “They don’t want to be a news story themselves, they don’t want their career ended early, and it’s having an impact.”
2015 closed with a 17 percent increase in homicides in the 56 largest cities, a nearly unprecedented one-year spike. Twelve cities with large black populations saw murders rise anywhere from 54 percent in the case of the District to 90 percent in Cleveland. Baltimore’s per capita murder rate was the highest in its history in 2015.
Robberies also surged in the 81 largest cities in the 12 months after the shooting of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Mo.
In the first quarter of 2016, homicides were up 9 percent and non-fatal shootings up 21 percent in 63 large cities, according to a Major Cities Chiefs Association survey.
Chicago is a prime example of the Ferguson effect. Stops were down nearly 90 percent in the first part of this year compared with last year. Shootings citywide through July 17 were up 50 percent compared with the same period in 2015; shootings were up 87 percent compared with the same period in 2014. In Austin, on the West Side, shootings are up 220 percent compared with 2014. Through July 19, 2,234 people have been shot in the city, averaging one an hour during some weekends. Yesterday, a 6-year-old girl was seriously wounded in her abdomen while sitting on her porch, when a violent shoot-out between three cars broke out; she is one of at least 21 children younger than 13 shot so far this year, including a 3-year-old boy shot on Father’s Day who is now paralyzed for life.
(One would have assumed, pursuant to the Black Lives Matter narrative, that racist cops were responsible for a significant portion of those shootings, given that their victims have been overwhelmingly black. In fact, Chicago cops shot 11 people, all armed and dangerous, through July 19, comprising 0.5 percent of all shootings.)
This crime increase, I argue, is due to officers’ reluctance to engage in precisely the proactive policing that has come under relentless attack as racist. For the past two years, activists, academics, the press and many politicians have charged that pedestrian stops and low-level public order enforcement (also known as “broken windows” policing) are little more than biased oppression of minority citizens.
That political message is accompanied by increasing tension on the street, inflamed by the persistent allegation that racist officers are the biggest threat facing young black males today. A garden-variety Black Lives Matter march that I attended last November on Fifth Avenue in New York featured “F–––the Police,” “Murderer Cops” and “Racism Is the Disease, Revolution Is the Cure” T-shirts as well as “Stop Police Terror” signs.
Officers working in urban areas are now routinely surrounded by angry crowds when they question a suspect or make an arrest. “In my 19 years in law enforcement, I haven’t seen this kind of hatred towards the police,” a Chicago cop who works on the South Side told me in May. “People want to fight you. ‘F––– the police. We don’t have to listen,’ they say.” A police officer in Los Angeles’s Newton Division reports: “Our officers are getting surrounded, cursed and jeered at every time they put handcuffs on someone.”
Officers continue to rush to crime scenes after someone has already been victimized, sometimes getting shot at in the process. But in that large area of discretionary policing that aims to prevent crime before it occurs — getting out of a squad car at 1 a.m., for example, to question someone who appears to have a gun or may be casing a target — many officers are deciding to drive on by rather than risk a volatile, potentially career-ending confrontation that they are under no obligation to instigate. “Every cop today is thinking: ‘If this stop goes bad, I’m in the mix,’ ” says Lou Turco, president of the Lieutenants Benevolent Association in New York City.
An officer in South Central Los Angeles described the views of his fellow cops: “Guys and gals in coffee shops are saying to each other: ‘If you get out of your car, you’re crazy, unless there’s a radio call.’ ”
That officers would lessen their discretionary engagement under this barrage of criticism and hatred is both understandable and inevitable. Policing is political. If a powerful segment of society sends the message that proactive policing is bigoted, the cops will eventually do less of it. This is not unprofessional conduct; it is how the calibration of police legitimacy is supposed to work.
Cops, moreover, are human. In a speech last October at the University of Chicago law school, FBI Director James Comey said that officers in one big city precinct had recounted being surrounded and taunted from the moment they made a pedestrian stop. “’We feel like we’re under siege, and we don’t feel much like getting out of our cars,’ ” they told him.
Under such conditions, it is not surprising that proactive policing is down. Remember, such policing is discretionary. Cops don’t have to do it. And they have been told not to do it by activists and the media, who accuse them of racism for making stops in high-crime areas. The only surprise is that many of those same activists are now accusing the cops of not “doing their job,” as a result of which “people are dying,” in the words of Black Lives Matter activist Shaun King. This is the same King who launched a petition in 2014 demanding that Attorney General Eric Holder “meet with local black and brown youth across the country” who were being oppressed by “broken windows” policing and pedestrian stops.
The connection between de-policing and crime increases has been documented before. A 2005 study of de-policing after the anti-cop riots in Cincinnati in 2001 by University of Washington economist Lan Shi, for example, found a significant increase in felony crime caused by the drop-off in officer engagement.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/07/20/the-ferguson-effect/
By Heather Mac Donald July 20 at 8:36 AM
The most controversial aspect of my new book, “The War on Cops,” is my claim that violent crime is up in many American cities because officers are backing off of proactive policing. I have dubbed this double phenomenon of de-policing and the resulting crime increase the “Ferguson effect,” picking up on a phrase first used by St. Louis’s police chief.
Violence began increasing in the second half of 2014, after two decades of decline. The Major Cities Chiefs Association convened an emergency session in August 2015 to discuss the double-digit surge in violent felonies besetting its member police departments.
The violence continued into fall 2015, prompting Attorney General Loretta Lynch to summon more than 100 police chiefs, mayors and federal prosecutors in another emergency meeting to strategize over the rising homicide rates.
Arrests, summonses and pedestrian stops were dropping in many cities, where data on such police activity were available. Arrests in St. Louis City and County, for example, fell by a third after the shooting of Michael Brown. Misdemeanor drug arrests fell by two-thirds in Baltimore through November 2015.
Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel told Lynch that his officers were going “fetal”: “They have pulled back from the ability to interdict,” he said. “They don’t want to be a news story themselves, they don’t want their career ended early, and it’s having an impact.”
2015 closed with a 17 percent increase in homicides in the 56 largest cities, a nearly unprecedented one-year spike. Twelve cities with large black populations saw murders rise anywhere from 54 percent in the case of the District to 90 percent in Cleveland. Baltimore’s per capita murder rate was the highest in its history in 2015.
Robberies also surged in the 81 largest cities in the 12 months after the shooting of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Mo.
In the first quarter of 2016, homicides were up 9 percent and non-fatal shootings up 21 percent in 63 large cities, according to a Major Cities Chiefs Association survey.
Chicago is a prime example of the Ferguson effect. Stops were down nearly 90 percent in the first part of this year compared with last year. Shootings citywide through July 17 were up 50 percent compared with the same period in 2015; shootings were up 87 percent compared with the same period in 2014. In Austin, on the West Side, shootings are up 220 percent compared with 2014. Through July 19, 2,234 people have been shot in the city, averaging one an hour during some weekends. Yesterday, a 6-year-old girl was seriously wounded in her abdomen while sitting on her porch, when a violent shoot-out between three cars broke out; she is one of at least 21 children younger than 13 shot so far this year, including a 3-year-old boy shot on Father’s Day who is now paralyzed for life.
(One would have assumed, pursuant to the Black Lives Matter narrative, that racist cops were responsible for a significant portion of those shootings, given that their victims have been overwhelmingly black. In fact, Chicago cops shot 11 people, all armed and dangerous, through July 19, comprising 0.5 percent of all shootings.)
This crime increase, I argue, is due to officers’ reluctance to engage in precisely the proactive policing that has come under relentless attack as racist. For the past two years, activists, academics, the press and many politicians have charged that pedestrian stops and low-level public order enforcement (also known as “broken windows” policing) are little more than biased oppression of minority citizens.
That political message is accompanied by increasing tension on the street, inflamed by the persistent allegation that racist officers are the biggest threat facing young black males today. A garden-variety Black Lives Matter march that I attended last November on Fifth Avenue in New York featured “F–––the Police,” “Murderer Cops” and “Racism Is the Disease, Revolution Is the Cure” T-shirts as well as “Stop Police Terror” signs.
Officers working in urban areas are now routinely surrounded by angry crowds when they question a suspect or make an arrest. “In my 19 years in law enforcement, I haven’t seen this kind of hatred towards the police,” a Chicago cop who works on the South Side told me in May. “People want to fight you. ‘F––– the police. We don’t have to listen,’ they say.” A police officer in Los Angeles’s Newton Division reports: “Our officers are getting surrounded, cursed and jeered at every time they put handcuffs on someone.”
Officers continue to rush to crime scenes after someone has already been victimized, sometimes getting shot at in the process. But in that large area of discretionary policing that aims to prevent crime before it occurs — getting out of a squad car at 1 a.m., for example, to question someone who appears to have a gun or may be casing a target — many officers are deciding to drive on by rather than risk a volatile, potentially career-ending confrontation that they are under no obligation to instigate. “Every cop today is thinking: ‘If this stop goes bad, I’m in the mix,’ ” says Lou Turco, president of the Lieutenants Benevolent Association in New York City.
An officer in South Central Los Angeles described the views of his fellow cops: “Guys and gals in coffee shops are saying to each other: ‘If you get out of your car, you’re crazy, unless there’s a radio call.’ ”
That officers would lessen their discretionary engagement under this barrage of criticism and hatred is both understandable and inevitable. Policing is political. If a powerful segment of society sends the message that proactive policing is bigoted, the cops will eventually do less of it. This is not unprofessional conduct; it is how the calibration of police legitimacy is supposed to work.
Cops, moreover, are human. In a speech last October at the University of Chicago law school, FBI Director James Comey said that officers in one big city precinct had recounted being surrounded and taunted from the moment they made a pedestrian stop. “’We feel like we’re under siege, and we don’t feel much like getting out of our cars,’ ” they told him.
Under such conditions, it is not surprising that proactive policing is down. Remember, such policing is discretionary. Cops don’t have to do it. And they have been told not to do it by activists and the media, who accuse them of racism for making stops in high-crime areas. The only surprise is that many of those same activists are now accusing the cops of not “doing their job,” as a result of which “people are dying,” in the words of Black Lives Matter activist Shaun King. This is the same King who launched a petition in 2014 demanding that Attorney General Eric Holder “meet with local black and brown youth across the country” who were being oppressed by “broken windows” policing and pedestrian stops.
The connection between de-policing and crime increases has been documented before. A 2005 study of de-policing after the anti-cop riots in Cincinnati in 2001 by University of Washington economist Lan Shi, for example, found a significant increase in felony crime caused by the drop-off in officer engagement.
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Wrong Again... as usual.
Do you just make shit up?
Obama didn't have to play the Race Card... because if you will remember racist white people you say don't exist, had already beat him too it.
With talk of Kenyan Muslims, and a Monkey in the White House...
You might recall a few of these... Right Vance? And these are the tame ones!
.
So, you are quite literally trying to tell us that Obama made or forced people through his race baiting to create signs such as these? You don't think perhaps these folks who did these were not racist before? Do you realize how dumb this sounds?
As far as police... Here again wrong... they have been beating up people of minority since the police were invented.
In fact... this is why they were created in the first place... to protect rich white people, and put everyone else back in their place.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
You must be right Stacey because it's you saying it. I am not going to argue with someone who has the IQ you have, and the ability to brow beat beyond recognition anyone who disagrees with you. I have not tried to insult you, it's just my very existence that insults you. You Stacey are an arrogant full of yourself twit. It is not possible to have a discussion with you. After all you are the smartest person in the room. Maybe that's why more times than not I suspect you find yourself the only person in the room.
fredman
Masterpiece
In any stable society the "attitude" of the police, is mostly set by the citizens. I'm talking mainstream, not minority cases. The more the hostility the more the "retaliation". Its just a human response really.
Here in NZ there is the same pressure on police regarding Maori. They also feel they are being targeted unfairly. Cant understand their reasoning, as they do most of the crime....
There is much hostility towards the police from Maori than from any other group.
For me its the same as a sales person targeting the right market. Get to know the areas where the sales are. To reach the target, it has to be worked......
Here in NZ there is the same pressure on police regarding Maori. They also feel they are being targeted unfairly. Cant understand their reasoning, as they do most of the crime....
There is much hostility towards the police from Maori than from any other group.For me its the same as a sales person targeting the right market. Get to know the areas where the sales are. To reach the target, it has to be worked......
watchndsky
Chumono
In any stable society the "attitude" of the police, is mostly set by the citizens. I'm talking mainstream, not minority cases. The more the hostility the more the "retaliation". Its just a human response really.
Here in NZ there is the same pressure on police regarding Maori. They also feel they are being targeted unfairly. Cant understand their reasoning, as they do most of the crime....
For me its the same as a sales person targeting the right market. Get to know the areas where the sales are. To reach the target, it has to be worked......
that hasnt always been the case (especially in the deep south last century) but basically you are right. if you dont resist, dont run, dont act a fool - you dont have much to worry about.
fredman
Masterpiece
http://m.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11673090
Any bonsai enthusiasts contemplating moving here, plz keep in mind trees are very limited, and no akadama, kanuma, turface or any other particles are allowed in. We do however have wagon loads of pumice, scoria, bark and moss though.....
Any bonsai enthusiasts contemplating moving here, plz keep in mind trees are very limited, and no akadama, kanuma, turface or any other particles are allowed in. We do however have wagon loads of pumice, scoria, bark and moss though.....
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Oh, come now Vance...
First off you know very well that under the heading of the Thread Catagory the Tea Room... it says "No Politics"... So, right of the bat, We are not supposed to be having this type of discussion to begin with. A rule that you not only cannot apparently follow here, but anywhere else on this site in it's entirety, seeing that you consistently break these rules on a regular basis...
So, do "Rules" not apply to you? Are you "Entitled", for them not to apply to you?
There is a reason why the Bar was closed down... because people could go there and say the most Racist shit, like call people "Nigger Lovers, and Muzzle Lovers" on a site that is supposed to be about Bonsai. Which apparently was fine with you as long as some one didn't have a problem with it and said something... For in your mind, I guess the one's that complained about it were the real problem, Right?
So, reading through this thread I have come across everything from people calling others murders for having abortions, talk of black people just wanting handouts and being lazy, a black Prez race baiting, Muslims beheading people, and the list goes on and on... and apparently this is cool with you and is proper talk on a Bonsai Forum, knowing very well you were asked by the owner of the site not to do it.
But, yet I am the problem, because I not only disagreed with you, but also showed where you were incorrect with your posts...
Just laughable!
Hey, I got an idea... if you don't want to be called out for saying nonsense... don't post it. And perhaps learn how to follow rules. They are there for a reason... no one wants to hear what you are thinking, as I am sure you do not want to hear what I think about it...
just.wing.it
Deadwood Head
Couldn't forget how he got the snowball rolling, even if I tried.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
There are currently 1076 posts on this thread a thread I did not start and you are singeling me out for the political infraction. You may remember Bnut allowed it. You remind me of the guy standing in a crowed elevator who cuts a really foul smelling fart and then with a shocked look on his face turns accusingly to the man standing next to him and glares at the man like it was his error of etiquette. So go away, I am not interested in discussing this with you. If I decide I want to say something I am going to say it regardless of what you F*&*&ng think.
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And I will respond accordingly...
Which is what I was doing until you got your panties in a wad and got all butt hurt over nothing...
I have posted in this thread 4 times I believe until this conversation. 2 of which were on your comments... you are nothing special Vance. I can't possibly spend my entire day following you around correcting your posts... that would be a full time job and sadly one that does not pay.
The only reason I replied to 2 of yours, was they just happened to be the last ones, or close to the last one's posted when I opened up the thread.
Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
Vance, I have to disagree with you that it is Obama's fault that cops are now being gunned down. Cops are being targeted because there have been too many young black men shot by cops in recent years and they are getting sick of it. I will agree that some of those black men's deaths may have been justified, but some of them werent. Some were downright wrong. So many of them, the unarmed black man was walking or running away from the officer to be shot in the back. There is video evidence to that fact in many of the cases.
And you cant convince me that Tre Von Martin was not targeted and killed by a white man because he "looked suspicious" while walking peacefully through a housing complex and not because he was black.
In any case the racial divide in this country has to stop. We are all one nation and one people no matter what the color of our skin is.
And it will take all of us, black, white, brown, etc to stop it.
And you cant convince me that Tre Von Martin was not targeted and killed by a white man because he "looked suspicious" while walking peacefully through a housing complex and not because he was black.
In any case the racial divide in this country has to stop. We are all one nation and one people no matter what the color of our skin is.
And it will take all of us, black, white, brown, etc to stop it.
GroveKeeper
Shohin
Unfortunately in america, if you're black simply moving your hand is enough to be considered "resisting" arrest. That is the reason I agree with BLM. The problem isn't that millions of black people are being killed by cops. The problem is that cops essentially have a license to kill blacks as long as they feel "threatened" . And Joe forbid you're black and have a criminal record when the cops shoot you to death. Because FOX news and the conservative commenters will be sure to label you a violent thug or an ape that should have been put down years ago. Nevermind the fact that they defend every gunfucking "militia" member with a criminal record who waves a weapon at cops and call it unconstitutional when they get shot.
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