just found my next project - pine clump

[barrosinc]

I just read Valavanis blog and saw this tree...


https://valavanisbonsaiblog.com/201...ity-japan-part-4-private-collection-displays/

This is now my favorite pine bonsai.

I am getting 5 2/3 year old black pines as a write to try to do it (it looks like it is white pine but those don't do well here).

Any ideas on the best way to plant these to get them to grow like that? a ceramic plate like tridents?

 

[Paradox]

I don't think they will fuse like tridents di.

I'd imagine just planting them close together.

FYI the pine in the picture appears to be JWP(?)

 

[barrosinc]

Yes, probably a JWP as I wrote in the initial post. If so, the bark would imply these to be non grafted and veeery old.
I don't know if it is natural or grown out as a clump.

 

[my nellie]

An ambitious project!
I wish you luck finding the suitable pines to start with.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Clump style can be done. Trick or the biggest obstacle is to get the subordinate trees close enough to the biggest one.

I'd start with trees of different ages. Note in the example, the smaller ones are about 2/3 the height of the main tree. A visual trick that works, one third or two thirds of height of main tree, avoid exactly half the height.

 

[Smoke]

I don't think they will fuse like tridents di.

Given enough time any woody plant will fuse. Some just fuse quicker like tridents and ficus. It's not so much fusing as it is approach grafting. In fact tridents will approach graft by just laying one branch against the other and putting a binder on it so it must graft as it grows. Other types of natural trees which fuse easily are sycamores and mullberry. The fastest graft I ever did was on pyracantha, like two weeks!

 

[barrosinc]

I am currently trying with black pines.
I used as small as possible to be able to tangle the roots and get these to fuse.
Sadly one didn't make it. Gonna have to try next year.

 

[barrosinc]

Given enough time any woody plant will fuse. Some just fuse quicker like tridents and ficus. It's not so much fusing as it is approach grafting. In fact tridents will approach graft by just laying one branch against the other and putting a binder on it so it must graft as it grows. Other types of natural trees which fuse easily are sycamores and mullberry. The fastest graft I ever did was on pyracantha, like two weeks!

I was thinking 8 year's in colander to build the trunk (not the bark though, that might take more time).

I have a Trident forest of five ror. I hope to be able to show that I'm 8 year's too. The roots already started fussing in one year

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

One method is to put a bunch of seed in the same spot in the pot, and let them grow. In nature sometimes a pine cone gets buried just right and a clump of seedlings sprout. Let them grow up several years, then thin to the number you want. You can vary the heights of JBP seedlings the same age by pulling needles early or middle summer. Pull more needles off the ones you want to finish shorter, leave all the needles on the dominant tree. Selective pruning will also be necessary. When repotting, treat the roots as a single root system if the trees are in the correct positions.

Bark for JBP simply takes time, 5 years for the initial hint of bark, 10 years to begin to look like real bark, and something over 25 years for mature bark. No way to rush it, time is all that is needed.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Every year, add a few more seedlings to the collander, until you have your number.

 

[barrosinc]

Every year, add a few more seedlings to the collander, until you have your number.

Yep! Added a new one today from the 6 year competition.
I have my hopes high for this project even though jbp files will not look as good.

 

[MichaelS]

I think you will be waiting a life time and never see much fusing of pine trunks if you use mature or barked material. It may work if you use very young material without bark and let it grow very strongly after you have roughly adjusted the trunk positions relative to each other. It is the pressure of the growing trunk against the next one that forces them to fuse but sometimes it just will not occur and they will just push away from each other. Another option might be to graft them together by using a modified whip graft low down on bare rooted trees. Adding more trees whenever you see fit but only one at a time. I have done it a couple of times but only with 2 trees. The more you use the more difficult it will be.

 

[barrosinc]

Thanks, Michael.
I will still keep on going to see what happens in 6 years or so. I just have to water it now and fertilize. Worst thing they don't fuse...
How do you think the original one was made??

 

[barrosinc]

Should i scratch the roots to see some cambium every year??? Or how do pines fuse??

 

[MichaelS]

Thanks, Michael.
I will still keep on going to see what happens in 6 years or so. I just have to water it now and fertilize. Worst thing they don't fuse...
How do you think the original one was made??

I guess - and it's only a guess - that it was a naturally formed and collected material which originally lost it's leader for some reason grew from several side shoots when very young. There is also the strong possibility that it was an air layering at a whorl of branches long ago too. I've only done this once with a white pine and man do you need to be patient! But....you can end up with 7 trunks from one root system.

 

[MichaelS]

Should i scratch the roots to see some cambium every year??? Or how do pines fuse??

I wouldn't go scratching anything. It is possible for pines to fuse together. Now and then you can see branches which grow against each other constantly having their bark rubbed off by the wind moving them, finally graft together when they thicken enough to resist the force of the wind. It's vitality winning the battle against dynamics.

 

[barrosinc]

There is also the strong possibility that it was an air layering at a whorl of branches long ago too

Ohh bummer...
I just cut the sacrifice branch of the only one pine I am developing trunk.

 

[clem]

hello !
Are you sure that the trunks have merged/fused ? When i look at the picture, i think the trunks have grown the one next to the others and now, after years of growing, they are very near and start to merge in the nebari..

If you are interested, i have cultivated some thunberg pines a little like you want to do, since 2005.
In 2005 :


In 2018


here is the nebari now


The problem with black pines is the big size of the needles but black pines grow faster.. It will take more time to do the same with parviflora pentaphylla pines but the result must be better because the needles are very short so it look like real trees.

Here is the link if you're interested to see more pics between 2005 and 2018 : http://www.espritsdegoshin.fr/forum-bonsai/topic.html?id=10812&

 

[barrosinc]

Thanks, clem. That was helpful.
If only white points grew well here.

 

[clem]

Thanks, clem. That was helpful.
If only white points grew well here.

Maybe you can find seeds or young scott pines (pinus sylvestris) ? they grow well and the needles can be reduced a lot ! it's good to have many projects
I just tried the same project with red pines (pinus densiflora) seeds this year !

If i can give you an advise, use a lot more trees than necessary, because some of them may die (it's what happened to me) and after a few years of growing, you can choose the best ones