Bjorn Apprenticeship

[ShadyStump]

Am I seriously the only one who took @Mikecheck123's comment as a statement on unpaid labor vs lazy Americans?
Seriously, stop trying to read shit into people's shit, people.

It was very clearly a comment on the ridiculousness of a culture that thinks unpaid internships and apprenticeships are fine, but God forbid a white kid have to stoop to nursery work for money.

 

[badatusernames]

I have to laugh a bit at the outrage here. Yeah, it's tough and yeah, it's free labor. BUT, this kind of thing is basically a path to your own bonsai business. What is in the job description is exactly the same thing foreign bonsai apprentices in Japan did (like Bjorn and Ryan Neal). They have capitalized on that relatively harsh experience to build their own businesses here using it as a marketing point. The apprentice at Bjorn's will be able to leverage his experience in the same way (not to mention probably gaining access to "inside" stuff, contacts, etc. in the position.)

I see the job description as weeding out the unserious candidates up front with dose of reality.

The Japanese model of teacher/apprentice model has always been a bit unforgiving and harsh. It's meant to harness humility and obedience into learning. Not everyone's cup of tea, but it is what it is. This "free labor" type of apprenticeship isn't limited to bonsai, FWIW. I have a friend who did an apprenticeship at a whisky distillery in Scotland for years. He took the summer to travel to the distillery and work long hours doing menial labor (as well as learning how to make scotch). He PAID for the privilege.

I agree with this take. I see this as Bjorn bringing the Japanese model to America which I can see as only a good thing. The people who want to do this, will do it and see it as the opportunity of a lifetime, just like Bjorn did his apprenticeship despite being grueling and hard.

I respect that he’s not conforming to an American model where you complain to HR if the master makes you work too hard. I don’t agree with applying that model everywhere, but at the moment I feel as though it’s the right path for increasing the quality of bonsai in America.

the highest tier of bonsai does not fuck around. Do not enter if not serious.

I will not be entering haha, I think even if I was retired the mentality I’ve grown up with is too ingrained in me to get up at 6am to was someone’s undies

I can’t talk to the legality of it, but I feel like I see what he’s going for and why vs. the “he’s trying to exploit people” thing.

 

[badatusernames]

Sounds like I should pretend I didn’t just notice this thread is seven pages long lol

 

[colley614]

We prefer the term "The prisoner with a job."

To be fair, a lot of this reminds me of my time in university. My supervisor would expect me to understand all the research and present key papers to the lab. It was my duty to keep the lab tidy. Set up experiments myself, conduct research and collect data. Write up a short report and then present it to the lab. Then present my research at conferences and write a journal article for publication, all with my supervisors name at the end. While all I got was everything I did got heavy criticism. At the end of it all I applied for a trainee position (doing what I'd been doing for years) and told I needed to apply for a voluntary position.

 

[namnhi]

What is the problem? It is a contract between two parties. Bjorn spelled out the expectations up front for suitors. I wouldn't do it but someone with the passion and have time can.
Unbelievable already 7 page discussions with zero bonsai related content on a bonsai forum.

 

[ShadyStump]

Sounds like I should pretend I didn’t just notice this thread is seven pages long lol

Unbelievable already 7 page discussions with zero bonsai related content on a bonsai forum.

We're a bunch of bored old farts, ok!

 

[badatusernames]

We're a bunch of bored old farts, ok!

haha I’m bored too it’s all good, it’s fun to see the opinions

 

[Shogun610]

Oh and if you’re into death metal… you and Bjorn can bond that too.. he’s a big fan of it.. as am I

 

[HorseloverFat]

Oh and if you’re into death metal… you and Bjorn can bond that too.. he’s a big fan of it.. as am I

I just like Metal.. Doom, Progressive, Black, Alternate, and "NU" are my favorites... But I realistically don't like the lineation.

Check the band "D ZOO" if you'd like some Jumpy, Serbian Nu-Metal.

 

[HorseloverFat]

Oh and if you’re into death metal… you and Bjorn can bond that too.. he’s a big fan of it.. as am I

That's a good song.... Do you like the original?

 

[Shogun610]

That's a good song.... Do you like the original?

Nah not a big fan of nu metal , doom , black or slipknot.. I like death metal , thrash metal and check out Slam Worldwide on Spotify that’s good stuff.. anyway sorry everyone for the side quest conversation lol. Go new apprentice!!

 

[HorseloverFat]

Nah not a big fan of nu metal , doom , black or slipknot.. I like death metal , thrash metal and check out Slam Worldwide on Spotify that’s good stuff.. anyway sorry everyone for the side quest conversation lol. Go new apprentice!!

I like Thrash Also..there's our denominator. (Death too)

YES!

Go new apprentice!!

 

[Forrestford]

Does this apprenticeship hold the same weight as one in Japan? I think part of the allure of being a bonsai apprentice is that you are in a foreign place, learning Japanese culture, and experiencing HIGH quality trees all the time.
I know Andrew Robson completed an apprenticeship under Hagedorn, was his as intense as the one Bjorn is calling for?

 

[Catagonia]

If you want -- really want, with the kind of passion a normal person thinks is crazy -- to become a film director, you would jump at a chance to do scut work for five years and watch while a big-name director works. There is simply no other way to get that kind of experience. Including the opportunity to meet big name stars or financial backers who will someday gladly take your calls, if you make the right impression.

Part of the appeal of this posting -- to the right person -- is not "prepare for a career making and selling small trees" but "be introduced as a professional in professional circles," meeting the right people and, in this case, building a media presence/reputation. (It occurs to me that may be why he wants a head shot. It's partly casting.)

Again, we're talking about the kind of passion a normal person thinks is crazy. If you're talking about labor laws and how the apprentice would be better off mowing lawns, that just means you're not crazy. At least not in that particular way

 

[ShadyStump]

I'll just say, it takes all sorts.
I won't argue with an unpaid apprenticeship because I'm not the one who is going to do it. Someone will, and someone should. It's an amazing opportunity. Just not one that most of us are interested in.
I would personally prefer a few summers in an orchard, or a general purpose nursery. I like trees of all sizes. For a young person who specifically likes tiny trees, this apprenticeship is for them.

As for the experience of this apprenticeship versus one in Japan, it really depends on what you're hoping to get out of it. Are you doing it for Japan or for cool trees in pots? If want the skills and connections, this will do it. If you want a cultural experience, there's plenty of other ways to get that.

 

[Dogestoevsky]

I work in the fine arts and undertook two year-long apprenticeships of similar ilk. Manual labor, menial tasks, on the fly lessons, you name it. I enjoyed much of the experience and have based my career around it. I certainly walked away with professional connections, and was taken seriously by clients when I completed the programs.

But then again, I had a few thousand dollars in savings, and I found free (!) housing with a religious human services organization in exchange for—you guessed it—more menial labor. I can’t speak to the culture of Japanese apprenticeships, but in the US such apprenticeships are rarely accessible to those without at least a decent safety net or the many soft skills of an undergraduate degree. I could have bottomed out a couple times over, but I knew my parents loved me and I could quit and live in their basement.

It takes a special kind of crazy, if you can afford the opportunity cost.

 

[aarnii]

I understand how cool and authentic it looks that we bring the 'Japanese model' to the west. And I admire their attention to detail and acknowledge that we are lightyears away from Japan in bonsai. However, they also have a near-medieval and outdated culture in some areas. And here I believe we are importing just that part, and I thought Eisen-en knew better.

For the ones saying that 'I did it and it worked for me', that confirmation bias doesn't mean it works. My father's teacher would hit him, cause that way 'knowledge would get in better'. Successful modern western institutions don't work like that, quite the opposite (they are super inclusive, iterate and try things fast and promote making mistakes, instead of giving you shitty tasks and observing for years). And in Japan you will later be treated like a master, but here you won't get your own appretices to perpetuate the model.

For example, Japan companies move as one, foment values like cleaning your stuff or caring about others, self-discipline or doing drastic product changes when needed. But they also have a lot of formality, dogmas, unflexible hierarchy and overworking. And I believe here we are importing only the latter, cause you don't need to wash clothes to be disciplined, have attention to detail and innovative.

In the background I wonder, can these two faces be split or is it the same coin? Maybe you can have one without the other.

 

[Shogun610]

I understand how cool and authentic it looks that we bring the 'Japanese model' to the west. And I admire their attention to detail and acknowledge that we are lightyears away from Japan in bonsai. However, they also have a near-medieval and outdated culture in some areas. And here I believe we are importing just that part, and I thought Eisen-en knew better. - As apposed to what US culture? Modern ideals that dilute or wash away cultural identities of an entire nation/ history? Sure each clture has its shortcomings , and far from perfect. Thats the tradition sure professionals will talk about stressful times and how hey didnt fit in, but thats what any outsider to a different culture would feel.. there are nuances and layers to Japnese culture & society that we as westerners wont understand...yes some inclusivity and acepting of others s individuals is good and adds balance........ but why change it and not just accept it for what it is? Thats what every bonsai pro thats apprencited in Japan says.... it is what it is, and parts they love is what they carry out over in US,,, parts they ddint get or understand is better left up to "thats how it is" ... but they wouldnt change it especially in a Japanese heirachical structure such as in a Bonsai stable.. some of thoe families reach backcentures and theyre proud of it.. as they should be. .....

For the ones saying that 'I did it and it worked for me', that confirmation bias doesn't mean it works. My father's teacher would hit him, cause that way 'knowledge would get in better'. Successful modern western institutions don't work like that, quite the opposite (they are super inclusive, iterate and try things fast and promote making mistakes, instead of giving you shitty tasks and observing for years). And in Japan you will later be treated like a master, but here you won't get your own appretices to perpetuate the model. - Its a mindset of merticracy , although advocating mre aking mistakes is good, thats another hallmark of Japanese hilopsphy and teaching as well , noone grows without making mistakes. Observing and taking on tasks in aheirachical structure builds character and is a good teaching tool. It also build humility in which is sometimes needed which is why for example a college grad will not be a CEO of a company... it takes time & experience to lead and innovate ideas that arent drilled into ones mind by an outside insitiution.

For example, Japan companies move as one, foment values like 1. "cleaning your stuff or caring about others, self-discipline or doing drastic product changes when needed". But they also have a lot of formality, dogmas, 2. unflexible hierarchy and overworking. And I believe here we are importing only the latter, 3.cause you don't need to wash clothes to be disciplined, have attention to detail and innovative. 1. Cleaning your personal space is actually a foundational structured approach to sorting yourelf out. It starts with the individual before they can be a contributing member as a society, it builds again discipline an bring order to chaos. 2. And in the united states people arent overworked? 3. Really? Again attention to detail is a keystone in bonsai when developing any artistic altruistic representation of nature in miniture or a miniature landscape, each detail represents everything when looking at an overarching themee of any expression. And my 1st argument should aso be response for thats 3rd hilighted quite.

In the background I wonder, can these two faces be split or is it the same coin? Maybe you can have one without the other.

You can see my respnes in blue wich highlighted comment from you in red.... I have to dissagree with 90% of what youve said.
Im mixed between a US bonsai naturalistic style and Japanese traditional sytle and mindset.... but as a Japanese practice I beleive there are still some aspect that need to be respected and preserved otherwise its approproated and diluted because western ideals dont like it

 

[aarnii]

You can see my respnes in blue wich highlighted comment from you in red.... I have to dissagree with 90% of what youve said.
Im mixed between a US bonsai naturalistic style and Japanese traditional sytle and mindset.... but as a Japanese practice I beleive there are still some aspect that need to be respected and preserved otherwise its approproated and diluted because western ideals dont like it

Very good points! Thanks for giving me the opposite view.

I am not american, and indeed there are many points of US culture I dislike (including overworking). I work in tech, and I always try to embrace the positives, as we are heavy influenced by it as you can imagine. And very often, I see people mimic aspects that stem from a smaller safety need or extreme individualism, just because the big boys do it. When I learn about japanese culture, I see many things I admire and I am jealous about, and many things that look rigid and dated. In my eyes this looked like 2.

And I felt that is what Bjorn was doing here, with a bit of 'I did it' bias, and we are justifying it because it's exotic or works for them. I might be wrong!

 

[Flowerhouse]

I just applied.

Happy to know who I'm competing with lol. I've already done a couple of unpaid internships called "student teaching." Wait. Not only were those unpaid, but I paid tuition for the privilege. Bjorn's intern is getting a good deal!