ID These Tree Types need help please!

deutsch · Jan 1, 2013

Hey everyone, I have 2 trees that i collected last summer from seedlings. They seem to be pretty fast growing. One of them looks maybe like an elm? Not sure what type if it is. The other I have no idea, I tried searching tree leafs and cant figure it out, could it be a hybrid of some sort growing wild? Is it even a tree? I live in Houston,Texas

Thanks for any help.

Brian Van Fleet · Jan 1, 2013

Looks like zelkova and sweet gum.

cmeg1 · Jan 1, 2013

The first looks like elm possibly zelkova,but some elms look like zelkova,maybe american elm.The second resembles maple,but I would lean towards oriental sweetgum.Look around where you collected the seedling for any parent trees and I think you can identify better.

nathanbs · Jan 1, 2013

I would say the second is much more likely an american liquid ambar/sweet gum not an orientalis

deutsch · Jan 1, 2013

Ok thanks guys. Yeah thats funny I have a sweetgum in my backyard which spews out those spiny balls all over the yard, but the leaves dont look like this one. Maybe more mature trees have different leaf shapes? As for the zelkova/elm I cant find any trees around my yard with these leaves. Maybe they were blown into my yard from a nearby tree. I have about 3-4 of them I found growing and potted them, I just figured it was a type of elm like siberian maybe?

bonsaibp · Jan 1, 2013

Could be cedar elm. I'm not so sure about them being liquidambers unless something has eaten large sections of leaves. It seems like they are too skinny between lobes .

nathanbs · Jan 1, 2013

bonsaibp said:
Could be cedar elm. I'm not so sure about them being liquidambers unless something has eaten large sections of leaves. It seems like they are too skinny between lobes .

I agree but don't know what else it could be. May be some sort of Japanese maple

daygan · Jan 1, 2013

The leaves on the 2nd look similar to leaves of liquidambars that I've either seen in person or in pictures/drawings, and they're alternate, not opposite, so that rules out maple of any kind... Let me see if I can find pictures of leaves similar to that...

nathanbs · Jan 1, 2013

Must just be a weird juvenile standard liquid ambar

daygan · Jan 1, 2013

Liquidambar

stock-photo-red-liquidambar-leaf-as-an-autumn-symbol-isolated-in-white-background-119535214.jpg

Liquidambar%20styraciflua%20Worplesdon.jpg

liquidambar_styraciflua_american_sweetgum_leaf_17-09-11_1.jpg

Now that I think about it, it seems that your tree's leaves look similar to the shape that I've seen some leaves take on liquidambars in zhejiang, China. I find that the leaves of the liquidambars I've encountered in person have a high degree of variation even among leaves on the same tree.

deutsch · Jan 1, 2013

yeah seeing those pictures, I do think it could be a liquidamber with a different variation of leaves. What about a hybrid tree? I've heard of hybrid trees before but is this possible to happend naturally? I also have many oaks and willows around my backyard.

edprocoat · Jan 1, 2013

I'd say the first is an american elm, the second one looks like a liquidamber or an oak. It could be that whatever is attacking the leaves has caused them to be mal-formed.

ed

daygan · Jan 1, 2013

deutsch said:
yeah seeing those pictures, I do think it could be a liquidamber with a different variation of leaves. What about a hybrid tree? I've heard of hybrid trees before but is this possible to happend naturally? I also have many oaks and willows around my backyard.

Well, firstly, every individual tree (aside from cloned specimens) has a unique gene combination, so I would think that would mean that once in a while, odd, unexpected variations could occur naturally even if not hybridized. Secondly, naturalhybridization among species of trees within the same genus does occur (see references below[SUP]1, 2, 3, 4, 5[/SUP]) in certain genera, and while it does not occur often in nature among liquidambars (mostly because of geographic separation[SUP]6[/SUP] ) it is physically possible (search "hybrid" in this article). (I personally feel that among many genera, what we label as "species" are quite a bit less seperate than our nomenclature suggests, and are really more like regionalized/isolated groups of gene pools that have become generally homogenized because of inter-sharing of genetic information within each pool over time.)

References:

The "promiscuous" Oak
1. http://www.ca.uky.edu/kywoodlandsmagazine/Vol5_No_1/pdf/oakpg12-13.pdf
2. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/08/030808081854.htm

Fraxinus velutina, latifolia, and pennsylvanica
3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraxinus_velutina

Maples:
4. http://www.na.fs.fed.us/pubs/silvics_manual/volume_2/acer/saccharinum.htm (search "hybrid")
5. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acer_saccharinum (search "hybrid")

6. http://www.na.fs.fed.us/pubs/silvics_manual/Volume_2/liquidambar/styraciflua.htm (search "hybrid")

Vance Wood · Jan 2, 2013

If you could amend your profile to show your location a better response could be provided. I have noticed a couple of exotic (foreign) species suggested that are not likely but remotely possible due to the spread of an exotic species in your area. The point is that wildings are most likely the offspring of native species and not those of exotic landscape trees. Having said this the one is definitely an elm and probably American Elm, the other looks a lot like Sweet Gun/Liquid amber especially in view of your sharing that you have a tree in your yard that throws these seed pods. Though the Elm is probably American Elm there are a couple of additional options depending on your location. It is also a possible Siberian Elm, an introduced species that spreads like a weed.

deutsch · Jan 2, 2013

daygan - thanks for the info and links. I was actually searching for information like this about hybrids. Even if it is not a hybrid it is interesting to read about.

Vance Wood - I updated now my profile to include my location. I live in Houston,Texas and my zone is 8b. I feel now even more that is also a species of Elm, and still not sure about the other but I have a hunch it is a sweetgum also. I was hoping it is a sweetgum anyway.

Vance Wood · Jan 2, 2013

deutsch said:
daygan - thanks for the info and links. I was actually searching for information like this about hybrids. Even if it is not a hybrid it is interesting to read about.

Vance Wood - I updated now my profile to include my location. I live in Houston,Texas and my zone is 8b. I feel now even more that is also a species of Elm, and still not sure about the other but I have a hunch it is a sweetgum also. I was hoping it is a sweetgum anyway.

The good news is that the Elm may be Cedar Elm.

Tone · Jan 2, 2013

Without touching the leaves, hard to say if the first one is a white elm or a slippery elm. But both are native to North America. The second one sure looks like sweet gum. I'm out of the range (too far north for that species) but I've seen them and the leaves are dead on.

nathanbs · Jan 2, 2013

Tone said:
Without touching the leaves, hard to say if the first one is a white elm or a slippery elm. But both are native to North America. The second one sure looks like sweet gum. I'm out of the range (too far north for that species) but I've seen them and the leaves are dead on.

No offense but the leaves are not dead on that is what is causing the confusion. A normal Liquid Ambar/sweetgum has leave that look a lot like your countries flag except for the two smallest lobes on your flag are bigger on a liquid ambar, but generally a very fat 5 lobe maple leaf, not skinny like the photo.

Tone · Jan 2, 2013

There is also much geographic variation. The ones I have seen in southern ontario had 3 lobes as on the photo. The bark may help identify further.

nathanbs · Jan 2, 2013

Tone said:
There is also much geographic variation. The ones I have seen in southern ontario had 3 lobes as on the photo. The bark may help identify further.

could be as I have only seen the ones in southern california but when I google image just about everything I saw looks like what I described

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