Some bonsai folks have guns

just.wing.it

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Just trying to understand here, not from a position to create an argument, but would you agree to the thought that you feeling the need to be able to defend yourself, is a display of a failed police force?
Of course...they're not on our side either.
They are no different than the gang bangers themselves.

White guys don't get stopped and asked why your white ass is around here
Must be nice...
You see cities like Baltimore, which have been solely controlled by one side of the isle for 100 years or more, are very backwards and have been for a long time.
No one knows about the racist, anti white policies of the bcpd...why would they repot that? Doesnt fit the narrative....

Yesterday an Anne Arundle County Councilwoman, in Annapolis, found a "guy dressed like a ninja, with a shot gun, in her bedroom closet"....
What the hell would you do if you found a member of antifa lurking in your closet with a shotgun??
He got away btw, because the old bag just ran like a pussy....
You see, the next mofo that tries that shit over here is getting lit up....

To me its completely insane to NOT have a gun in your home, to protect your property and family....but why would I expect people who donate to planned parenthood to care about their lives, or the lives of their family???
 

just.wing.it

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Oh, this reminds me of a tale from a fellow worker in Austin, TX. He lived on a busy street corner in a 'bad' area of town. He had a dog and kept a 45 in his night stand. One night his dog acted like someone was in his house. He got his trusty 45 from the night stand and proceeded to assess the situation, going from room to room. Of course it was in the dark as turning on the lights or carrying a flashlight would show the intruder exactly where he was and would make himself an easy target. He continued his inspection, not finding anything unusual until he arrived at the door to his kitchen. Crouched down in front of his refrigerator he could clearly see the perp. His dog started barking wildly, so he shot the perp several times and threw on the lights.

Then he remembered that he had left his vacuum cleaner in front of the refrigerator earlier that day. He had to buy a new refrigerator on the next day. He got a good deal on a new vacuum cleaner from that same appliance dealer.

I have no idea why he would have told such a story about himself (true of fabricated), but it always comes to mind when I make the mistake of descending into this stuff. A gun will not stop your car from being stolen - they will be gone before you can shoot them. It won't stop you from being mugged - likely it will just get you killed when you try to be Mr. Fastdraw. White guys don't get stopped and asked why your white ass is around here. If it did happen and you pulled a gun, you would be in a world of shit. If you carry a gun just so you won't have to use it, you don't need it because you won't use it. If you use it, you've got lots and lots of legal trouble, even if you feel wonderful about what a 'hero' you are.

Life is tough.
Its tougher if you are stupid.
That guy in your story is what we call an irresponsible gun owner.
 

substratum

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The 2nd Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. (right to keep and bear arms), exists for one reason: to assure that we never have a tyrannical government. The Founding Fathers had little discussion about self defense, and no discussion (in the historic record) about “hunting,” largely because they viewed both those things as “natural rights.” All of the Bill of Rights are explicit restraints upon the government’s ability to restrict freedom, and are our assurance of freedom.

Guns are not the cause of violent crime in the USA, or anywhere else on planet Earth. The sinful hearts of men are the cause.

Gun ownership has been an intregal part of American society since its founding. It has nothing to do with the adequacy of the police force. But we could never have a police force that adequately protects everyone at all times... simply not possible. So, the adage, “When you need the police in seconds, they are only minutes away,” would become reality pretty darn quick. #1 fear of criminals is an armed citizen.

Me and my family enjoy shooting firearms. None of use are paranoid. All of us have “watchdog” mentalities.
 
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watchndsky

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The 2nd Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. (right to keep and bear arms), exists for one reason: to assure that we never have a tyrannical government. The Founding Fathers had little discussion about self defense, and no discussion (in the historic record) about “hunting,” largely because they viewed both those things as “natural rights.” All of the Bill of Rights are explicit restraints upon the government’s ability to restrict freedom, and are our assurance of freedom.

Guns are not the cause of violent crime in the USA, or anywhere else on planet Earth. The sinful hearts of men are the cause.

Gun ownership has been an intregal part of American society since its founding. It has nothing to do with the adequacy of the police force. But we could never have a police force that adequately protects everyone at all times... simply not possible. So, the adage, “When you need the police in seconds, they are only minutes away,” would become reality pretty darn quick. #1 fear of criminals is an armed citizen.

Me and my family enjoy shooting firearms. None of use are paranoid. All of us have “watchdog” mentalities.

additionally - scotus has ruled that the police are under no obligation to protect you.
 

substratum

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additionally - scotus has ruled that the police are under no obligation to protect you.
True. Though that is a somewhat recent interpretation (2005). In that case, the facts were, IMHO, egregious, children died, Restraining Orders were demonstrated to be useless, and the Chief of Police should have been fired for the inaction of his agency. Sad that it led to a landmark case like that.

I seriously doubt any Constitutional LEOs (Sheriffs) have ever run on the, "We have no Constitutional obligation to protect you," platform, LOL!
 

watchndsky

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True. Though that is a somewhat recent interpretation (2005). In that case, the facts were, IMHO, egregious, children died, Restraining Orders were demonstrated to be useless, and the Chief of Police should have been fired for the inaction of his agency. Sad that it led to a landmark case like that.

I seriously doubt any Constitutional LEOs (Sheriffs) have ever run on the, "We have no Constitutional obligation to protect you," platform, LOL!

ive never heard of one run on that - but kinda drives home the point that we are responsible for our own protection, not anyone else. i mean if scotus says it, it must be true ;)
 

Vance Wood

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Just trying to understand here, not from a position to create an argument, but would you agree to the thought that you feeling the need to be able to defend yourself, is a display of a failed police force?
In a word: No. It is more a display of a lack of confidence that our politicians are able or willing to punish those who do us damage and in some cases allow them to go free to continue in their nefarious deeds. In an age when our laws have become subjective there is need to defend ourselves against the results of some of this political correctness run-o-muck.
 

substratum

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except the data doesnt support that. even the cdc discovered that defensive gun use is way more common than the public thinks or hears - and in the vast majority of cases - defense is successful without a single shot fired.

and there should really only be one reason for lots and lots of legal trouble and that is when the shot was not justified. unfortunately, zealous DAs and liberal policies can still make it very costly and risky to defend yourself in court. that is why stand your ground laws are so important. if it was NOT a justified instance of self defense, you will still be punished accordingly (or not depending on how much legal rep you can afford) and if it was a justified shooting, you have the law protecting you .

To the issue of Stand Your Ground laws, allow me to join in for those that may not understand it (because it has nuances). We have a SYG law in Florida. There is a common misconception about SYG, but it is NOT a criminal defense - it preempts a criminal defense. Here's how it works (in FL): If you have to use a firearm/weapon to defend yourself or others, and you are charged with a crime for that action despite meeting the legal criteria for use of deadly force, you request a Stand Your Ground Hearing. Keep in mind, you are charged with a crime, so this is a pre-trial hearing in front of a judge to determine if you legally used the firearm/weapon to defend yourself. If the judge rules that you legally used the firearm/weapon, the charges are dropped, and you do NOT go to trial. In essence, the state has to prove their case to the judge to justify taking a citizen to trial if that citizen meets the criteria for requesting a SYG Hearing, AND requests it.

Self Defense can be determined by a State Attorney, in which case (a good one) will not bring charges, or it can be used in the courtroom of a criminal trial. In the infamous case of George Zimmerman (Z) and Travon Martin (TM), Z did not meet the legal requirements to ask for a SYG Hearing, so he went to trial for Murder. The initial State Attorney opined that Z used deadly force in Self Defense, but because of political pressure, the Governor removed that State Attorney from the case, and appointed another, who brought Murder charges. Z's defense, was Self Defense, and the facts of the case (the state's witnesses) supported Z's version of events, and led to his acquittal. SYG was never an issue in that Z/TM trial (though the judge erroneously referenced it in the jury instructions).

In Florida, the number one utilizers of SYG Hearings to justly avoid a criminal trial, are minorities, because most violent crime occur in the communities in which they live.
 
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watchndsky

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To the issue of Stand Your Ground laws, allow me to join in for those that may not understand it (because it has nuances). We have a SYG law in Florida. There is a common misconception about SYG, but it is NOT a criminal defense - it preempts a criminal defense. Here's how it works (in FL): If you have to use a firearm/weapon to defend yourself or others, and you are charged with a crime for that action despite meeting the legal criteria for use of deadly force, you request a Stand Your Ground Hearing. Keep in mind, you are charged with a crime, so this is a pre-trial hearing in front of a judge to determine if you legally used the firearm/weapon to defend yourself. If the judge rules that you legally used the firearm/weapon, the charges are dropped, and you do NOT go to trial. In essence, the state has to prove their case to the judge to justify taking a citizen to trial if that citizen meets the criteria for requesting a SYG Hearing, AND requests it.

Self Defense can be determined by a State Attorney, in which case (a good one) will not bring charges, or it can be used in the courtroom of a criminal trial. In the infamous case of George Zimmerman (Z) and Travon Martin (TM), Z did not meet the legal requirements to ask for a SYG Hearing, so he went to trial for Murder. The initial State Attorney opined that Z used deadly force in Self Defense, but because of political pressure, the Governor removed that State Attorney from the case, and appointed another, who brought Murder charges. Z's defense, was Self Defense, and the facts of the case (the state's witnesses) supported Z's version of events, and led to his acquittal. SYG was never an issue in that Z/TM trial (though the judge erroneously referenced it in the jury instructions).

In Florida, the number one utilizers of SYG Hearings to justly avoid a criminal trial, are minorities, because most violent crime occur in the communities in which they live.

thanks for taking time to post that - theres a common misconception that its the equivalent of a get out of jail free card.
 

Vance Wood

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thanks for taking time to post that - theres a common misconception that its the equivalent of a get out of jail free card.
I can give you a get out of jail free card from right here in Michigan. Two stupid young men are making some sort of blog post video envolving a lot of cash and a gun, what's that about one is tempted to ask, but the kid holding the gun supposedly shot his frined in the back of the head killing him. He gets 3 months probation and community service, judge's ruling that it was an accident. They were both over 18. If you or I had "this accident"--- accident or not we would do hard time.
 

watchndsky

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I can give you a get out of jail free card from right here in Michigan. Two stupid young men are making some sort of blog post video envolving a lot of cash and a gun, what's that about one is tempted to ask, but the kid holding the gun supposedly shot his frined in the back of the head killing him. He gets 3 months probation and community service, judge's ruling that it was an accident. They were both over 18. If you or I had "this accident"--- accident or not we would do hard time.
Our justice system is pathetic. There are way too many examples of pleas dismissals and lax sentences. Nobody wants to pay for additional prisons and its become popular to turn an eye to gain political points. Its disgusting.
 

substratum

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I can give you a get out of jail free card from right here in Michigan. Two stupid young men are making some sort of blog post video envolving a lot of cash and a gun, what's that about one is tempted to ask, but the kid holding the gun supposedly shot his frined in the back of the head killing him. He gets 3 months probation and community service, judge's ruling that it was an accident. They were both over 18. If you or I had "this accident"--- accident or not we would do hard time.
We had something similar occur in Tallahassee a few years ago (sans the YouTube video production). Perp said it was "an accident," but someone is nonetheless, dead. Finally went to trial for Manslaughter, jury agreed with the state's case and viewed it as criminal negligence; perp got 10 years. Depends upon a lot of things... jury, judge, state, defense, facts of the case, etc.
 

Vance Wood

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We had something similar occur in Tallahassee a few years ago (sans the YouTube video production). Perp said it was "an accident," but someone is nonetheless, dead. Finally went to trial for Manslaughter, jury agreed with the state's case and viewed it as criminal negligence; perp got 10 years. Depends upon a lot of things... jury, judge, state, defense, facts of the case, etc.
Our little "It was an axe-0-dent" guy got 30 days probation and community service. He gets to go around our schools and lecture our kids on the evils of playing with guns.
 

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Just trying to understand here, not from a position to create an argument, but would you agree to the thought that you feeling the need to be able to defend yourself, is a display of a failed police force?

The average police reaction time is, allegedly, ten minutes. Leaving aside all else about said police force (the crime rate around here is among the lowest in the county and they don't constantly occupy themselves with collecting municipal revenue, so they have to be doing something right), you might be amazed at what can happen in that amount of time.
When seconds count, police are just minutes away.
 

Vance Wood

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Just trying to understand here, not from a position to create an argument, but would you agree to the thought that you feeling the need to be able to defend yourself, is a display of a failed police force?
In today's world it is a response to the political climate that seeks to support crime and support the killing of it's police.
 

Cosmos

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Just a thought.

Montréal is a pretty safe city. Violent crime is low. I live in a historically working class neighbourhood, where things used to be pretty rough just 15-20 years ago (there actually was a murder just next to my place about 9-10 years ago, gang-related I think). French Canadians and Irish working class people, historically, with some Caribbean immigrants in the last decades. More and more young "hip" people (like me, I guess...) and well off families are moving in these days.

But still, on my street, I know for a fact that quite a few people are involved in petty crime and very likely have a criminal record. What I am also convinced of, is that none, or at least very very very few of them, have any firearm at home or easy access to firearms. So what's the worst that can happen is they decide to do evil? They can mug/assault/rape somebody with a knife or any other melee weapon, I guess. The risk of fatality is very low. I've heard of a few muggings in the past years around here, some involving knives, none involving a firearm.

I think of those of you in America, living in suburbs where everyone or almost has at least one, but often many firearms at home, ready to be used (whether they were bought for hunting, protection, etc.). What's the worst that can happen if one of your neighbours becomes depressed and alienated, or starts to harbour ill-will towards a group/a place, has mental health issues, etc. and has 20 semi-auto rifles and pistols in his basement? The likelihood of that resulting in a carnage is much much higher than that happening on my quiet, low-income street with petty criminals minding their own business, with no access to firearms.

When the rest of the world talks to Americans about guns, it's not necessarily to say stuff like "guns are evil" or "gun culture is stupid" (in Canada, there is also a strong gun culture is rural regions). I think the main thing we are trying to get at when we look at the US with astonishment is that when everybody has guns and access to guns is super easy, the consequences of mental health issues in a society are magnified. They get exponentially worse the more guns are spread out. So yes, "mental health" is often the root of the issue, not the guns themselves, but the prevalence of guns makes mental health issues a public security issue, instead of being, elsewhere in the western world, mostly a public health issue.
 

watchndsky

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Just a thought.

But still, on my street, I know for a fact that quite a few people are involved in petty crime and very likely have a criminal record. What I am also convinced of, is that none, or at least very very very few of them, have any firearm at home or easy access to firearms. So what's the worst that can happen is they decide to do evil? They can mug/assault/rape somebody with a knife or any other melee weapon, I guess. The risk of fatality is very low. I've heard of a few muggings in the past years around here, some involving knives, none involving a firearm.


you should talk to some of the folks i have personally trained about "what is the worst that can happen" and hear their thoughts on the subject.

examples:
an elderly couple that are threatened and beaten when a repeat offender breaks in and beats the husband because hes not content to rob them of whats visible and insists there is more in the house. the man was in the hospital for a month
a woman in her thirties raped and beaten while in her yard gardening from a known sex offender (again who is out on streets) walking through her neighborhood on his way to a store
a middle aged man who owns a cleaning business and must leave his wife home alone at night to clean offices - whose wife sees 5 teenagers casing out their place and is forced to hide in a barn while the place is burgled (nearest town is 15-20 minutes away - closest neighbor is 1/4 mile away)
an elderly woman living alone has her house broken into despite an alarm system alerting police who arrived within 7 minutes (which is a great response time) this woman would have no chance of defending herself against a physcial confrontation and has serious heart problems - fortunately she wasnt at home and was with me - this woman was my mom
a young single mom, whose teenage daughter hears a noise and notices 3 hoods breaking into their car - 8 feet from the apt door they were about to walk out of to go to school/work at 6am. that was my kid who was about to go out to start the car.

i could go on- but i think you get my point and you might feel very different if you or someone you loved suffered through any of the situations i personally have encountered.

there are so many misconceptions about guns/ownership from people who have no experience with them. images of wild west style shootouts and average citizens walking around town waving guns at everyone are not what we see here. of course there are irresponsible gun owners who arent safe with their weapons, thats no different than the people i pass on the road texting and facebooking while driving down the road. unfortunately laws arent a cure for stupidity. but by and large the vast majority of gun owners never commit a crime, and never have any mishaps from owning a gun.

the "gun problem" in this country is overstated. 2/3 of all quoted gun deaths are suicides- a problem that gun control would do nothing to resolve. we dont have a gun problem - we have a culture problem. we have repeat offenders who constitute the vast majority of all remaining stats on "gun violence". we have a media who irresponsibly report a story ad nauseum giving every mass shooter guaranteed infamy for x amount of time. we have weak borders that allow drugs and criminals through - which ultimately undermine and destroy society from within.

laws are great when people follow them. but gun control only eliminates weapons from the lawabiding and creates a black market for them - just like our failed war on drugs has done.
 
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