Is the current bonsai instructional system broken?

leatherback · Feb 14, 2020

jimib said:
but ultimately it just wasn’t good stock. He took the time to point out the flaws in the tree, why they were flaws, and what I should be looking for when buying stock.

Now this I agree with. A good teacher will look at all materials, but will also indicate to the enthusiastic student that the solutions are very limited due to the material in front of them. That in order to make a great tree, many years and loads of work is required. Or better material. However with only a fraction of the people doing bonsai actually wanting to grow in the hobby and improve their skills, this would have been fairly problematic. The recently resurfacing word snob comes to mind.

Adair M said:
What are you trying to say?

There should be no rules in art?

leatherback · Feb 14, 2020

0soyoung said:
What is a good bonsai as opposed to 'potensai'?
What are the traits/characteristics of a good bonsai?

The way I see it..
Bonsai is a small TREE in a container that looks like an ancient large tree

So you are working towards a tree that has all characteristics of an old tree. Partially exposed rootbase, aged bark. Old wounds are closed or rotted out of yins. Ever refining canopy. Tapered trunk and branches.

So the better the material, the more of these elements are present. A plant that has just been dug from a field, is no more than a trunk with taper and 3 big cutmarks and perhaps an OK nebari is better than a sapling with no trunk, no rootbase to speak of. But worse than a naturally dwarfed yamadori without the need for chopping, with great natural nebari. And of course, you want to avoid bulges which in a full sized tree would be unexplainable.

In the end, there is material which will need a lot of growing out before you can even begin to think about the canopy. And there are trees which you could plump in a pot and of which 95% of the people would say: Add a bit of wire and your tree is ready for exhibition.

Add personal taste and insight and you get to debate whether something is suitable in the margin. But a few basic elements will get you very far.

jonathanvperth · Feb 15, 2020

I go to bed listening to Mirai podcasts and sleep with Mirai books beneath my pillow.

Forsoothe! · Feb 15, 2020

You can teach the science of horticulture, ~sort of, except maybe soil science. And you can teach the basics of the Golden Triangle. Beyond that, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and some people will be forever blind. Not because they can't recite the rules of balance and harmony, but because they see a horse of a different color. What is artfully done and dramatic to one can be clumsy and unappealing to another. Bunjin being a prime example.

How many of the great masters of art died poor verses those who were recognized in their lifetime? The number of people who could make a living or even break even in bonsai depends upon the marketplace and the number of possible customers. It will be a a part-time endeavor at best for the great majority of interested parties and very few will have the tenacity and financial strength to meddle through. Need I say more?

sorce · Feb 15, 2020

An artist lives every poor life able to watch his rich next one but not enter it, all for our enjoyment.

Guess there's no artists in Hollywood!

Sorce

Owen Reich · Feb 15, 2020

Forsoothe! said:
You can teach the science of horticulture, ~sort of, except maybe soil science. And you can teach the basics of the Golden Triangle. Beyond that, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and some people will be forever blind. Not because they can't recite the rules of balance and harmony, but because they see a horse of a different color. What is artfully done and dramatic to one can be clumsy and unappealing to another. Bunjin being a prime example.

How many of the great masters of art died poor verses those who were recognized in their lifetime? The number of people who could make a living or even break even in bonsai depends upon the marketplace and the number of possible customers. It will be a a part-time endeavor at best for the great majority of interested parties and very few will have the tenacity and financial strength to meddle through. Need I say more?

There are a lot of generalizations in your statements above.

Forsoothe! said:
You can teach the science of horticulture, ~sort of, except maybe soil science. And you can teach the basics of the Golden Triangle. Beyond that, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and some people will be forever blind. Not because they can't recite the rules of balance and harmony, but because they see a horse of a different color. What is artfully done and dramatic to one can be clumsy and unappealing to another. Bunjin being a prime example.

How many of the great masters of art died poor verses those who were recognized in their lifetime? The number of people who could make a living or even break even in bonsai depends upon the marketplace and the number of possible customers. It will be a a part-time endeavor at best for the great majority of interested parties and very few will have the tenacity and financial strength to meddle through. Need I say more?
[/QUOT

Saying less may be better.

Most of the above is vague. Bonsai is all about balance and harmony. So, the styles that use a strongly offset balance or erratic line are still balanced and harmonious, or they would fall over.

Without aesthetic principles, how do you teach others about art, discuss, innovate, disrupt the current paradigm, etc. Anyone who does bonsai needs to understand basic art principles or they can’t do bonsai.

Thank you ALL for your contributions to this thread. It almost stayed drama free. My sincere hope is to be candid about this bonsai educational system we have (for lack of a better term) and what might be done to improve experiences for both student and teacher.

One final point I’d like to bring up. Has anyone in ABS, BCI, or other organizations in North America ever considered providing clubs content for beginners vetted by a panel of seasoned pros? There are quiet, talented people in the bonsai world that do a great job. Still learning from them.

Going to speak in generalizations below:

These 501c3’s are often poorly run and broke. Bonsai is not a cheap hobby. This is why I won’t travel in part to clubs. I have profound respect for the poor planners who are squeezing dimes to share their love of this art.

Perhaps a small handbook titled “So You Got Stuck with Program Director” or something. Volunteer organizations should not fully control the actions of professionals brought in to teach them. Everyone asked me why I drove everywhere; then the locals cannot keep you at a bar for 4 hours to tell them stories about Japan. Volunteers decide the program, pick material, schedule the time of year, etc. Then a pro shows up to make chicken salad out of chicken . This is an inherently flawed system. A lot of people do ask what I’d prefer to do. The 3 hour talk by a pro on a Friday evening after just arriving before 2-3 workshops on Saturday with all meals with local club or board members then an evening demo. Sunday, more events, treasurer never shows, then drive or fly to next city. How much would that cost in the normal world to hire a consultant / pro? Since everyone seems to like using plumbers for this debate, I’d say a 2 day 3 night out of state plumber for an involved project would cost at least 8k; as opposed to $600 / day plus travel (that’s with degree, Japan study time, all the work for mentors, and committing to being available to travel. Risky as it gets.

Owen Reich · Feb 15, 2020

Forsoothe! said:
You can teach the science of horticulture, ~sort of, except maybe soil science. And you can teach the basics of the Golden Triangle. Beyond that, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and some people will be forever blind. Not because they can't recite the rules of balance and harmony, but because they see a horse of a different color. What is artfully done and dramatic to one can be clumsy and unappealing to another. Bunjin being a prime example.

How many of the great masters of art died poor verses those who were recognized in their lifetime? The number of people who could make a living or even break even in bonsai depends upon the marketplace and the number of possible customers. It will be a a part-time endeavor at best for the great majority of interested parties and very few will have the tenacity and financial strength to meddle through. Need I say more?

Saying less may be better.

Most of the above is vague.
Bonsai is all about balance and harmony. So, the styles that use a strongly offset balance or erratic line are still balanced and harmonious, or they would fall over.

Without aesthetic principles, how do you reach / communicate with others about art, discuss, innovate, disrupt the current paradigm, etc. Anyone who does bonsai as a student needs to understand basic art principles or they can’t do bonsai.

Thank you ALL for your contributions to this thread. My sincere hope is to be candid about this bonsai educational system we have (for lack of a better term) and what might be done to improve experiences for both student and teacher.

One final point I’d like to bring up. Has anyone in ABS, BCI, or other organizations in North America ever considered providing clubs content for beginners vetted by a panel of seasoned pros? Why not sell workbooks with drawings with note-taking space? Kits with Gumby like trees to bend for demos that have foliage pads you can attach? Have regional care sheets in a binder for proven species people keep alive there.

There are quiet, talented people in the bonsai world that do a great job in these volunteer organizations. Still learning from them.

Going to speak in generalizations below:

These 501c3’s are often poorly run and broke. Bonsai is not a cheap hobby. This is why I won’t travel in part to clubs. I have profound respect for the planners who are squeezing dimes to share their love of this art.

Perhaps a handbook titled “So You Got Stuck with Program Director” would be good. Volunteer organizations should not fully control the actions of professionals brought in to teach them. Volunteers decide the program, pick material, class size, cost, schedule the time of year, etc. Then a pro shows up to make the best of it at times. This is an inherently flawed system. A lot of people do ask what I’d prefer to do, but they’d never get their money back.

The 3 hour talk by a pro on a Friday evening after just arriving before 2-3 workshops on Saturday with all meals with local club or board members then an evening demo. Sunday, more events, treasurer never shows, then drive or fly to next city. How much would that cost in the normal world to hire a consultant / pro? Since everyone seems to like using plumbers for this debate, I’d say a 2 day 3 night out of state plumber for an involved project would cost at least 8k; as opposed to $600 / day plus travel (that’s with degree, Japan study time, all the work for mentors, and committing to being available to travel. Risky as it gets.

leatherback · Feb 15, 2020

Owen Reich said:
Since everyone seems to like using plumbers for this debate, I’d say a 2 day 3 night out of state plumber for an involved project would cost at least 8k; as opposed to $600 / day plus travel (that’s with degree, Japan study time, all the work for mentors, and committing to being available to travel. Risky as it gets.

this!

SouthernMaple · Feb 16, 2020

Owen Reich said:
I’m going to start this thread by stating that I’ve spent the last 7 years traveling to teach bonsai in most of America save California, Maine, Iowa, and I think one of the states in New England. So, as part of the system, I’ve had an inside look at things.

My sincere hope for this thread would be that nobody gets into a negative mindset. Constructive criticism is great. I appeared on Bjorn’s series in a parody episode I came up with part of, highlighting the faults in other YouTube bonsai people’s content. Was the lighting great at Kouka-en? Not always. However, it’s what was available to unpaid labor in a foreign land.

So, I think making pro’s ricochet around the continent to hastily style 6-8 (please no more) trees in 4 hours - remember there will be two of these the pro does usually in a day, is not effective use of a worth their salt pro’s time. This is something a talented local could be conned.... I mean encouraged to do. It’s worked in many places.

One final thing and I’ll respond once or so a day to the thread. I don’t think we should stop, just restructure. The Mirai online presence is causing some positive ripple effects. Eisei-en has been for a very long time. Anyway, I hope to hear from those who’ve also given this some thought, and have ideas.

photo for gettin’ attention - I collect it in spring.... Cephalanthus occidentalis

Well don't think your hard work goes unnoticed. I think you are definitely in my top 3 favorite pros behind Nigel Saunders and Peter Chan. All kidding aside though I think you would do really well on youtube, you have a very likeable personality and you know your shit. If Nigel can do it I don't know why people like you don't. The problem with Bonsai I feel for novices is that its such a huge investment, you have to buy trees, soil, pots, tools, you have to have space, and after all those expenses you don't want to pay 80 bucks for a 2 hour session. Its just a pretty high maintenance/high cost hobby and I think thats what turns off a lot of people. And if i had more money to spend on it I would probably buy more trees or pots.

I think if you could have a space where people could bring their trees and use your space, tools, with light instruction and had a community type of vibe to it that that would work out well. Maybe you could get a liquor license where you could have people bring their own beer/wine for 5 bucks and get a wristband, like Cali & Titos did. And charge them by the hour or a 3 hour pass for 20 bucks or a monthly rate for a few hundred bucks. You could also have a retail side to it and sell soil and pots and trees that need to be worked on. I just think a place where people can hang out be social and have someone there that can provide advice and pretend to be their friend. Also people are more likely to spend money when they have a few drinks in them.

When i lived in Athens, surprisingly there was no local club, I would have to drive to Atlanta to be in one which was not appealing at all. Clubs have been very important for me here in Asheville, we have a decent club but there are alot of older people in there and the younger members only go to the auctions and workshops. We also have a good mentorship program. I think the online courses are a waste of money for me at least. And I think 1 on1 pro instruction is for when I am more advanced and a waste of time on a beginner like myself. I used to be a cook and I try to treat bonsai the same, there are skills you have to have but there is also some creative improvisation in there as well. And the two best teachers I can have are repetition and failure.

I hope whatever you do works out and I look forward to seeing you demo a maple hopefully.

Woocash · Feb 16, 2020

SouthernMaple said:
The problem with Bonsai I feel for novices is that its such a huge investment, you have to buy trees, soil, pots, tools, you have to have space, and after all those expenses you don't want to pay 80 bucks for a 2 hour session.

My thoughts are that Owen and his peers are almost wasted on these people (myself included) because of the lack of knowledge to begin with. As you soon as you start mixing novices with top end teachers there’s going to be a disconnect. How much of what a novice is taught by these guys is useful at their (our) stage of learning is going to stick? Surely we must learn the building blocks first. If we were either A) confident enough in our knowledge base, B) committed enough to serious improvement, C) wealthy enough, and/or D) willing to accept the holes in our knowledge that running before walking can bring, then paying top dollar for top tuition is easily justifiable.

I mean, if you are going to spend all that money on equipment why would you not pay to use it properly or get the most out of it? That’s where the phrase, “All the gear and no idea” comes from.

jonathanvperth · Feb 16, 2020

I think that anyone can be a bonsai “pro” with enough money and a natural flare for human interaction. I was watching a YouTube vid of an extremely popular “pro” when my friend stumbled in “This guy is a tool, sounds like a used car salesman”

These are the teachers people brag about “studying with” when you really paid $400 for what? Its like paying a professional musician to listen to you try and stumble through stairway to heaven.....in a quick afternoon with other musicians there???

Woocash · Feb 16, 2020

jonathanvperth said:
I think that anyone can be a bonsai “pro” with enough money and a natural flare for human interaction. I was watching a YouTube vid of an extremely popular “pro” when my friend stumbled in “This guy is a tool, sounds like a used car salesman”

These are the teachers people brag about “studying with” when you really paid $400 for what? Its like paying a professional musician to listen to you try and stumble through stairway to heaven.....in a quick afternoon with other musicians there???

I bet I can guess which pro you mean. The style is not my cup of tea either. However, acting and sounding like a used car salesman has nothing to do with the knowledge and skill which he clearly possesses. Yes, anyone can sound like they know what they’re talking about, but putting yourself out there to any intensive degree will soon have you found out in a niche community if you don't know your onions.

I get the analogy, but people paying the professional musician should already know ‘stairway’ when they arrive IMO. The pro should be teaching them how to elevate it from the songbook, not how to stick to it.

markyscott · Feb 16, 2020

Woocash said:
My thoughts are that Owen and his peers are almost wasted on these people (myself included) because of the lack of knowledge to begin with. As you soon as you start mixing novices with top end teachers there’s going to be a disconnect. How much of what a novice is taught by these guys is useful at their (our) stage of learning is going to stick? Surely we must learn the building blocks first. If we were either A) confident enough in our knowledge base, B) committed enough to serious improvement, C) wealthy enough, and/or D) willing to accept the holes in our knowledge that running before walking can bring, then paying top dollar for top tuition is easily justifiable.

I mean, if you are going to spend all that money on equipment why would you not pay to use it properly or get the most out of it? That’s where the phrase, “All the gear and no idea” comes from.

I don't know what Owen’s thoughts are on this, but I do know some pro’s who find it much easier to work with beginners than folks who have been around awhile and think they know something. Much easier to reach receptive ears than to try to get people to unlearn bad habits they’ve picked up from youtube or from other amateurs and practiced through the years. Many of those folks do not approach the experience with the spirit of a student and are much harder to teach because they are no longer willing to learn. My advice to a beginner who asked would be to not fart around trying to pick things up from YouTube - go to someone like Owen and learn from them.

Scott

Woocash · Feb 16, 2020

markyscott said:
I don't know what Owen’s thoughts are on this, but I do know some pro’s who find it much easier to work with beginners than folks who have been around awhile and think they know something. Much easier to reach receptive ears than to try to get people to unlearn bad habits they’ve picked up from youtube or from other amateurs and practiced through the years. Many of those folks do not approach the experience with the spirit of a student and are much harder to teach because they are no longer willing to learn. My advice to a beginner who asked would be to not fart around trying to pick things up from YouTube - go to someone like Owen and learn from them.

Scott

Well I don’t particularly disagree, but I suppose it depends on the student and depends on the teacher. Some people are better teaching beginners, some may feel it’s a waste of experience or don’t have the patience. I’m not saying don’t do it, people should just be prepared to pay a fair and proper price for it.

markyscott · Feb 16, 2020

Woocash said:
Well I don’t particularly disagree, but I suppose it depends on the student and depends on the teacher. Some people are better teaching beginners, some may feel it’s a waste of experience or don’t have the patience. I’m not saying don’t do it, people should just be prepared to pay a fair and proper price for it.

I don’t speak for all professionals, so I don’t know how many there are who feel that way. None that I know, but if that’s the case, there are other options to be sure. One should be prepared to pay for that instruction, but the value proposition is savings in time. I dabbled in bonsai for 25 years before I found a good teacher and I thought I knew what I was doing. Today I’d give anything to have those 25 years back.

- Scott

Forsoothe! · Feb 16, 2020

Conflating different levels of skill and how to teach them in any endeavor is a fool's errand. While we're at it, we can straighten out Kindergarten through PhD math, too. I lead a beginner's workshop most years which is a class pretty close to spanning K through the 4th grade in bonsai. The students are pleased if they leave with a Fig or Juniper they have wired and that I or one of the assistants has moved the branches into place. The class is an introduction to bonsai and is intended only to give them a closer look and hopefully, draw them in further. They get a 6 page primer to read beforehand and refer to in the future. Joining a local club is recommended and that's as much as can be accomplished with those people at that level. Bonsai 100.

Bonsai 101 through ~201 is a combination of blogging, reading, browsing nurseries, and rubbing shoulders with other locals in clubs or wherever. It lasts several semesters, ofttimes years. Periodic 3 or 4 hour workshops for mid-level students can run the gamut from guys like me with middling skills (who are available for nothing) to Bill Valvanis, et al who cost more.

Bonsai 300 & up is only locally available 2,500 miles west. Let me count the number of local (to the whole state) people who have opted for higher level classes: 2.

That, Mr. @Owen Reich, is specificity. Now tell me again what your pool of students equals in $USD?

Maloghurst · Feb 16, 2020

Owen Reich said:
Saying less may be better.

Most of the above is vague.
Bonsai is all about balance and harmony. So, the styles that use a strongly offset balance or erratic line are still balanced and harmonious, or they would fall over.

Without aesthetic principles, how do you reach / communicate with others about art, discuss, innovate, disrupt the current paradigm, etc. Anyone who does bonsai as a student needs to understand basic art principles or they can’t do bonsai.

Thank you ALL for your contributions to this thread. My sincere hope is to be candid about this bonsai educational system we have (for lack of a better term) and what might be done to improve experiences for both student and teacher.

One final point I’d like to bring up. Has anyone in ABS, BCI, or other organizations in North America ever considered providing clubs content for beginners vetted by a panel of seasoned pros? Why not sell workbooks with drawings with note-taking space? Kits with Gumby like trees to bend for demos that have foliage pads you can attach? Have regional care sheets in a binder for proven species people keep alive there.

There are quiet, talented people in the bonsai world that do a great job in these volunteer organizations. Still learning from them.

Going to speak in generalizations below:

These 501c3’s are often poorly run and broke. Bonsai is not a cheap hobby. This is why I won’t travel in part to clubs. I have profound respect for the planners who are squeezing dimes to share their love of this art.

Perhaps a handbook titled “So You Got Stuck with Program Director” would be good. Volunteer organizations should not fully control the actions of professionals brought in to teach them. Volunteers decide the program, pick material, class size, cost, schedule the time of year, etc. Then a pro shows up to make the best of it at times. This is an inherently flawed system. A lot of people do ask what I’d prefer to do, but they’d never get their money back.

The 3 hour talk by a pro on a Friday evening after just arriving before 2-3 workshops on Saturday with all meals with local club or board members then an evening demo. Sunday, more events, treasurer never shows, then drive or fly to next city. How much would that cost in the normal world to hire a consultant / pro? Since everyone seems to like using plumbers for this debate, I’d say a 2 day 3 night out of state plumber for an involved project would cost at least 8k; as opposed to $600 / day plus travel (that’s with degree, Japan study time, all the work for mentors, and committing to being available to travel. Risky as it gets.

As a figure painter I would gladly pay (once in awhile) 350.00 for a 2 day wknd workshop. Along with 20 other artist. That’s 7000.00. Granted I was not saving for Bonsai trees at the time but I would still pay this for 2 day workshop where I leave with a number of my trees styled by myself with guidance.
I would only pay this for well established and admired artist. Not any artist on a teaching circuit. Other artist would charge less.
I admire you as an artist. I see Bonsai as more of an art form then some others because I am an artist.
I think you can learn a lot from books and videos and this forum but as stated nothing beats hands on instruction. In a figure painting work shop the artist paints a portrait each day that we all watch then we paint and they critique and help. Because everything else can be learned at community college or online etc. That’s why you are always wanted to style trees. And help set direction of student tree. Because that is the hardest skill to obtain. I like the Gumby tree idea. I know you from this site and Bjorns video and I trust you are a very skilled artist but I have a hard time finding your trees online. I don’t do Facebook. I would sorce a figure painting workshop by the artists work on their website.

MrWunderful · Feb 16, 2020

You cant equate something like a skilled trade to bonsai for cost comparison. People who want indoor plumbing NEED plumbers. People THat want light and heat NEED Electricians and HVAC guys.

Nobody “needs” little trees that require a ton of specialized care.

People want bonsai, and paying for lessons is a straight luxury hobby. I like the discussion happening, but we need to compare traveling professionals to something other than a trade craft in my opinion for accuracy.

That being said, I myself will happily pay a ton of money for bonsai instruction if I feel value in it.

Minky · Feb 16, 2020

Anybody have any actual numbers on the attrition rate of bonsai beginners? I am guessing the best we can do is anecdotal numbers. In my experience it has to be about 80%. There are many sub-levels to this. Some will never return or think about it again. Some will think about it from time to time the rest of their lives but do nothing...and then there are the ones like me who took this on the first time ( 1996-98 ) but did not have the discipline and maturity to balance this with the rest of life's demand. So after quitting in '98, I spent 20+ years seeing bonsai in the full size trees around me. Noticing flare and nebari in my neighbors trees and wondering if they would miss that tree in their front yard if it suddenly disappeared

Then one day you ask yourself, if not now, when?

I am now, the man I needed to be back then to succeed.

Its fun this time, not stressful.

Perhaps the always unknown variable is maturity/discipline of the student.

BrianBay9 · Feb 16, 2020

In the "real world" a professional consultant gets $100 - $200 PER HOUR, plus travel time and expenses.

Is the current bonsai instructional system broken?

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