Advice on Cuttings from DAS for Grouping

[Bonsai Forest]

Dwarf Alberta Spruce

1. Is there a better place to cut on the semi-mature and mature primary branches (featured below) to use as cuttings to make a group planting?



2. My books recommend cutting just below junctions but on softwood only without mention of hardwood. Does the same principle, then, apply with more mature and woody cuttings?

3. Is simply wetting the cut site and coating with root hormone sufficient to promote root growth?

4. Lastly, is it necessary to use a peat moss and perlite mix only for the soil, or is a standard organic potting soil okay?

The books recommend Autumn - Winter as the best/appropriate time for taking and planting cuttings, so it seems now would be fine. I have an unheated and dimly lit (with windows) garage where my trees reside for the remainder of Winter.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Those are pretty big pieces of material for cuttings in my opinion. However I wish you luck - I have not tried cuttings with DAS so maybe you will be successful!

With cuttings, most people tend to lean towards a mix that will keep the cutting moist but not wet, and one that will reduce the risk of pathogens/fungus. Perlite works well - as long as you deal with the lightweight aspect of the media. I use 100% pumice that is sifted and rinsed for my cuttings - it works like perlite with a little more weight, and is easy to work with during transplanting. Some people like to add a little sphagnum/peat moss - understanding that it is acidic and has natural anti-fungal properties and tends to hold water well (if you are having difficulty with low humidity). Organic mixes, IMHO, are to be avoided, because it is too easy for them to compact, hold too much water, and not allow enough air into the soil.

 

[Bonsai Forest]

Those are pretty big pieces of material for cuttings in my opinion. However I wish you luck - I have not tried cuttings with DAS so maybe you will be successful!

With cuttings, most people tend to lean towards a mix that will keep the cutting moist but not wet, and one that will reduce the risk of pathogens/fungus. Perlite works well - as long as you deal with the lightweight aspect of the media. I use 100% pumice that is sifted and rinsed for my cuttings - it works like perlite with a little more weight, and is easy to work with during transplanting. Some people like to add a little sphagnum/peat moss - understanding that it is acidic and has natural anti-fungal properties and tends to hold water well (if you are having difficulty with low humidity). Organic mixes, IMHO, are to be avoided, because it is too easy for them to compact, hold too much water, and not allow enough air into the soil.

Much appreciated the response and explanation on the soil/moisture needs. Propagation trays and perlite it is! Perhaps I will use the smaller (but woody) primaries and add softer secondary growth from the larger primaries featured.

 

[MaciekA]

I have not successfully rooted DAS yet, which I've only attempted with a very small number of shoots, but between my teacher and his apprentices, they've rooted many dozens of ezo cuttings over the last few years, one of which I have as a proper tree in a colander now. If ezo works, DAS should IMO work. My successful conifer propagation experiences have been mostly with things in cupressaceae (various junipers, chamaecyparis) and lodgepole pine.

The second-bottom-most marked shoot in your picture is a cutting size I've seen 100% work on ezo spruce, but be aware that this is at scale. With just a handful of cuttings, it'll be enough of a statistical tossup that maybe none of them root, but if you had 50 - 100 cuttings the size of that particular one from the same tree, you'd probably get some rooting as long as you did all the propagation things right. Doing all the propagation things right is by far the hard part, especially with conifers.

If you don't have Michael Dirr's propagation manual you might want to take a look, there is a section that reports (and provides details for) successful cutting-based propagation for picea glauca anywhere from 70 to 80% success rate. So this is doable specifically for this species even though Dirr lists some other spruces as being exceptionally hard.

 

[Bonsai Forest]

I have not successfully rooted DAS yet, which I've only attempted with a very small number of shoots, but between my teacher and his apprentices, they've rooted many dozens of ezo cuttings over the last few years, one of which I have as a proper tree in a colander now. If ezo works, DAS should IMO work. My successful conifer propagation experiences have been mostly with things in cupressaceae (various junipers, chamaecyparis) and lodgepole pine.

The second-bottom-most marked shoot in your picture is a cutting size I've seen 100% work on ezo spruce, but be aware that this is at scale. With just a handful of cuttings, it'll be enough of a statistical tossup that maybe none of them root, but if you had 50 - 100 cuttings the size of that particular one from the same tree, you'd probably get some rooting as long as you did all the propagation things right. Doing all the propagation things right is by far the hard part, especially with conifers.

If you don't have Michael Dirr's propagation manual you might want to take a look, there is a section that reports (and provides details for) successful cutting-based propagation for picea glauca anywhere from 70 to 80% success rate. So this is doable specifically for this species even though Dirr lists some other spruces as being exceptionally hard.

Thank you very much for the info and advice. I would like to acquire the manual you mentioned. I’ll look for it. Cheers.

 

[River's Edge]

My books recommend cutting just below junctions but on softwood only without mention of hardwood. Does the same principle, then, apply with more mature and woody cuttings?

Juvenility is important for success in most cuttings. Lateral cuttings are a better choice than terminal cuttings according to DIrr.
So a " heel cutting with some hardwood on young wood" . Essentially the side shoots removed by tearing off the branch will respond better than tips cut off the ned of the branch.
These comments by Dirr assisted me to successfully propagate cuttings from Ezo spruce. I would also suggest many cuttings be started as success rates are often quite low.

 

[Bonsai Forest]

Juvenility is important for success in most cuttings. Lateral cuttings are a better choice than terminal cuttings according to DIrr.
So a " heel cutting with some hardwood on young wood" . Essentially the side shoots removed by tearing off the branch will respond better than tips cut off the ned of the branch.
These comments by Dirr assisted me to successfully propagate cuttings from Ezo spruce. I would also suggest many cuttings be started as success rates are often quite low.

Thank you very much for these tips. I’m curious about necessary lighting required for them, how often, and until which point?

 

[River's Edge]

Thank you very much for these tips. I’m curious about necessary lighting required for them, how often, and until which point?

Very dependant on the approach you wish to use! They can be done outdoors or indoors. Climate with respect to light and humidity is another variables. An answer is dependant on your resources.

 

[Bonsai Forest]

Very dependant on the approach you wish to use! They can be done outdoors or indoors. Climate with respect to light and humidity is another variables. An answer is dependant on your resources.

Fair enough. I have no indoor growing equipment or lighting, haha. My goal is to plant a small/young spruce grouping/forest.

 

[River's Edge]

Fair enough. I have no indoor growing equipment or lighting, haha. My goal is to plant a small/young spruce grouping/forest.

Seek out a local nursery that grows seedlings for reforestry or landscape purposes and purchase a dozen. Simplest most cost effective way to get started on that project. Spruce are more difficult to propagate from cuttings and unless you wish a particularly difficult cultivar it would be simpler to just buy some seedlings or two to three year old saplings.

 

[Bonsai Forest]

Seek out a local nursery that grows seedlings for reforestry or landscape purposes and purchase a dozen. Simplest most cost effective way to get started on that project. Spruce are more difficult to propagate from cuttings and unless you wish a particularly difficult cultivar it would be simpler to just buy some seedlings or two to three year old saplings.

Much appreciated. I will do this.

 

[jszg]

If you don't mind purchasing online, Musser Forests, Porky Farm are 2 good options.

 

[Bonsai Forest]

If you don't mind purchasing online, Musser Forests, Porky Farm are 2 good options.

I’m checking their website now. The only available and local option I could find was the VA department of forestry and they had no spruce seedlings/plugs available but tons of pine(s).

 

[Orion_metalhead]

Never thought to try spruce cuttings... going to give it a shot with some stuff now hearing about decent success rates.

 

[rockm]

FWIW, don't really see the point in taking cuttings of DAS when they're so cheap and relatively common in nurseries. Getting more mature trees for a group planting is relatively cheap and easy to do to greater effect. A couple or three saplings would run you $60 or less if you find them on sale at Lowes or HD, or even cheaper online.

I've had DAS as bonsai. They're frustrating. They will always push growth upward. Branches tend to lift into the vertical position even with wire and aggressive bending techniques. It's a lifelong struggle to keep branches in more horizontal positions. Best technique I found that had decent success was to severely scar the underneath of bigger branches, wire them horizontally and wait for the scars to callus over.

I had a group of larger DAS for 15 years or so. Finally threw it out in frustration. They are tough trees however and can take a lot of abuse.

 

[Bonsai Forest]

FWIW, don't really see the point in taking cuttings of DAS when they're so cheap and relatively common in nurseries. Getting more mature trees for a group planting is relatively cheap and easy to do to greater effect. A couple or three saplings would run you $60 or less if you find them on sale at Lowes or HD, or even cheaper online.

I've had DAS as bonsai. They're frustrating. They will always push growth upward. Branches tend to lift into the vertical position even with wire and aggressive bending techniques. It's a lifelong struggle to keep branches in more horizontal positions. Best technique I found that had decent success was to severely scar the underneath of bigger branches, wire them horizontally and wait for the scars to callus over.

I had a group of larger DAS for 15 years or so. Finally threw it out in frustration. They are tough trees however and can take a lot of abuse.

I understand what you’re saying, Nearly every book and article has also recommended lifelong guy-wiring etc. I’ve considered the method you mentioned for keeping branches downward.

Does the scarring occur underneath the shoulder at the trunk? If so, do you then just mash some cut paste/puddy into it and then wire it down, holding it into form and letting the wound heal? I’m determined to have a grouping and continue with my few very small twin trunks and others.

I’m waiting to hear back about 1-3 year old groups of saplings to order online (PA and/or VDOF).

 

[Bonsai Forest]

I have not successfully rooted DAS yet, which I've only attempted with a very small number of shoots, but between my teacher and his apprentices, they've rooted many dozens of ezo cuttings over the last few years, one of which I have as a proper tree in a colander now. If ezo works, DAS should IMO work. My successful conifer propagation experiences have been mostly with things in cupressaceae (various junipers, chamaecyparis) and lodgepole pine.

The second-bottom-most marked shoot in your picture is a cutting size I've seen 100% work on ezo spruce, but be aware that this is at scale. With just a handful of cuttings, it'll be enough of a statistical tossup that maybe none of them root, but if you had 50 - 100 cuttings the size of that particular one from the same tree, you'd probably get some rooting as long as you did all the propagation things right. Doing all the propagation things right is by far the hard part, especially with conifers.

If you don't have Michael Dirr's propagation manual you might want to take a look, there is a section that reports (and provides details for) successful cutting-based propagation for picea glauca anywhere from 70 to 80% success rate. So this is doable specifically for this species even though Dirr lists some other spruces as being exceptionally hard.

Found it online and it’s pricey (as I just ordered 3 expensive books recently) but I think the library at UVA has it. I can likely borrow it as I live nearby.

 

[rockm]

I understand what you’re saying, Nearly every book and article has also recommended lifelong guy-wiring etc. I’ve considered the method you mentioned for keeping branches downward.

Does the scarring occur underneath the shoulder at the trunk? If so, do you then just mash some cut paste/puddy into it and then wire it down, holding it into form and letting the wound heal? I’m determined to have a grouping and continue with my few very small twin trunks and others.

I’m waiting to hear back about 1-3 year old groups of saplings to order online (PA and/or VDOF).

I wound, bend and wire the branches into place--used putty initially, but it turned messy with sap. Wouldn't bother if I did it again. I shave off as much as half the branch diameter to get thicker scarring. It worked for a while, but the ends of the branches continued to pull into the vertical if not monitored.

But if you're working with cuttings and seedling, branching is about ten years down the road. Tf you want branches now, I would wire existing branching into horizontal angles. The point of emergence on the trunk in DAS almost always points upward, which makes branches wired further down the line look odd and "rainbowish."

FWIW, I wouldn't bother working on such material. That's just me, though. I would start with saplings at least an inch in diameter with existing branching. Those saplings are very common and cheap at nurseries around here. DAS can be handled pretty roughly and can handle some extremes. The group I made from HD saplings was kept on a slab not in a pot. The trees didn't really care.