Amur Maple chop recommendation

[LCD35]

So I picked up this Amur last fall on clearance from a nursery. It wasn't long before it put on a gorgeous Autumn show. This will be the first time executing a major chop and maybe repot of nursery material. Soda can for reference. How low should I go? Building a grow box soon, as our temps are being strange and I want to be able to when the right time hits.

 

[Hartinez]

So I picked up this Amur last fall on clearance from a nursery. It wasn't long before it put on a gorgeous Autumn show. This will be the first time executing a major chop and maybe repot of nursery material. Soda can for reference. How low should I go? Building a grow box soon, as our temps are being strange and I want to be able to when the right time hits.

I think it looks great! Before I give my opinion on where I would chop, what does YOUR bonsai eye tell you? Where would you cut?

 

[0soyoung]

Are you sure that the lower trunk is as thick as you ever want it to be?

Once you chop it, it won't thicken much until the new growth is nearly the same caliper.

 

[thumblessprimate1]

I've screwed up enough Amur maple to know two things: 1) Don't wait for it to be so thick before a chop and 2) Don't chop a leader to where there is only 1 branch, you could have serious dieback on side with no branch.

 

[LCD35]

I think it looks great! Before I give my opinion on where I would chop, what does YOUR bonsai eye tell you? Where would you cut?

My first thought is is go fairly low. I can see buds down low that should support a low chop, say right below the lowest large branch. Everything I'm reading and seeing about amur is they do better as medium to larger size because of the long petioles. This would allow me to start building taper as well. Additionally, those three beginning branches are super long and emerge fairly close together, so it could potentially cause taper issues in the future. Perhaps cutting here? Thanks for flipping it back on me. I appreciate it.

 

[LCD35]

I've screwed up enough Amur maple to know two things: 1) Don't wait for it to be so thick before a chop and 2) Don't chop a leader to where there is only 1 branch, you could have serious dieback on side with no branch.

First time working with Amur. They'll die back to a branch? In which case doing a cut like this is safer I suppose.

 

[Hartinez]

My first thought is is go fairly low. I can see buds down low that should support a low chop, say right below the lowest large branch. Everything I'm reading and seeing about amur is they do better as medium to larger size because of the long petioles. This would allow me to start building taper as well. Additionally, those three beginning branches are super long and emerge fairly close together, so it could potentially cause taper issues I'm the future. Perhaps cutting here? Thanks for flipping it back on me. I appreciate it.

I’ve had one Amur and it responded very well to a heavy chop to basically a trunk. Budded all over for me. I removed 75-80% of its roots at the same time. Grew wonderfully for 2 years till I died whil I was on vacation. Blew off of my benches with out my house keeper realizing. .

if it were mine I’d first explore the base and surface roots a bit to see if there is an angle that is best for viewing based on the nebari. I think that the thickness is good at this point and thick enough to support a good 10-12” tree. I think I’d go here. I like that first bend and would think that removal of those first branches would heal over well enough in 5-10 years. Probably closer to 10.


with all that said, my experience with Amur is limited and I think you could regrow a great tree by chopping low. @0soyoung and @thumblessprimate1 also make great points and things to think about.

 

[thumblessprimate1]

First time working with Amur. They'll die back to a branch? In which case doing a cut like this is safer I suppose.

It depends a bit. Likely more forgiving on younger smaller trees. On thicker calipers, I'd be sure to have a branch or graft one to prevent dieback.

I'd make cuts higher than you have marked, then hope for buds that turn into branches. The reduce after I have branches to prevent dieback.

 

[LCD35]

Are you sure that the lower trunk is as thick as you ever want it to be?

Once you chop it, it won't thicken much until the new growth is nearly the same caliper.

Ah, I wasn't aware this was the growth habit of amur. If that's the case, and I do in fact want a thicker trunk, a repot into a grow box with proper soil for feeding and watering sounds like it might be the better path this spring. I'm not dying to chop. I was just under the impression I could begin building taper by repeatedly chopping and regrowing a leader.

 

[0soyoung]

Ah, I wasn't aware this was the growth habit of amur. If that's the case, and I do in fact want a thicker trunk, a repot into a grow box with proper soil for feeding and watering sounds like it might be the better path this spring. I'm not dying to chop. I was just under the impression I could begin building taper by repeatedly chopping and regrowing a leader.

It is not just Amur, it is everything!

If one supposes that the tree adds the same amount (volume) of wood for every unit of length, it is easy to see that the thickness of the growth ring on a thick trunk is less than on a thin stem. The volume of wood gets spread over a much larger radius and hence must be thinner compared to a thin stem. It isn't exactly how trees work, but it isn't all that far off.

New growth in thickness is made by cambium cells. The width of these cells is fixed for the species. More stuff is required to support more cambium cells around a thick trunk than a thin one. But all the stuff must come down the same stem. In simple usable terms, the chopped trunk won't thicken much until the new growth is about as thick. For amur maples, for all maples, for oaks, for all oaks, for pines, all pines, for all trees!

 

[thumblessprimate1]

How big of a tree do you want? If shohin, sooner is better.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Looks like your trunk is already over 1 inch diameter.

While @0soyoung is largely correct, more or less, Amur maple can be very fast growing, and will size up even after trunk chops. Key to increasing caliper of a trunk is volume of foliage the tree supports. The total surface area of leaves supported by a trunk is what determines the rate of thickening.

One thought I had was go toward an informal broom style. The trunk branches to 2, when branch again giving 4, again 8, again 16 type pattern. This is a fairly common theme on trees in nature, maples, elms, oaks and others tend to do this.

In the virt with blue, remove the thickest trunk, cut short the remaining branches. New front will be around 90 degrees to the right from the old front.

In the virt with red, remove the forward moving branch branch, shorten the thickest and the remaining branch. Remember each new segment of branch added should be about 2/3rds the length of the previous segment.



This is just one of the options. Cutting or pruning escape branches and sacrifice leaders sooner in Amur maples will give you less lumpy scaring. Amur maple can get pretty ugly with lumps and bumps. They also have a naturally more coarse bark than Japanese maple, so the lumps and bumps will "disappear" when the tree hits 30 or 40 years of age.

 

[LCD35]

Well everyone, you've certainly given me a lot to consider and think about. This is one of the reasons I come back to this site. Thank you for the replies and patience, as I'm sure these posts are common. I get a lot from the explanations behind the different ideas.

 

[LCD35]

I’ve had one Amur and it responded very well to a heavy chop to basically a trunk. Budded all over for me. I removed 75-80% of its roots at the same time. Grew wonderfully for 2 years till I died whil I was on vacation. Blew off of my benches with out my house keeper realizing. .

if it were mine I’d first explore the base and surface roots a bit to see if there is an angle that is best for viewing based on the nebari. I think that the thickness is good at this point and thick enough to support a good 10-12” tree. I think I’d go here. I like that first bend and would think that removal of those first branches would heal over well enough in 5-10 years. Probably closer to 10.
View attachment 283400

with all that said, my experience with Amur is limited and I think you could regrow a great tree by chopping low. @0soyoung and @thumblessprimate1 also make great points and things to think about.

You never replaced the Amur your lost??

 

[Hartinez]

You never replaced the Amur your lost??

Haven’t seen one worth buying since then. There have been a few on the auction sites I almost bought, but haven’t. I did buy a trident from the auction recently. Amur is one I do need to get again though. They do so well in our hot and dry climate.

 

[sorce]

At first I was with @0soyoung and quite hesitant about a cut yet.
But what @thumblessprimate1 has to say about closing holes is true.

So I zoomed and saw that, you are surely under the limit of Too big to cut and heal wounds.
Where if you were, it would be better to just get huge and chop ugly for taper that won't heal.

So personally, I would layer the left trunk off, and do both!
The remaining 2 trunks could grow this season and still heal next.
And you can use the layer to go get huge, or also trim pretty If you prefer. Point is, it's right there. A year away from doing both with exactly the same start.

From where I stand....that's a no brainier. Yes, a close relative to that mountain. Lol.

I rather enjoyed this thread, especially how @LCD35 has thrown this information in the thought wheel, it feels like a good tree is happening. Quite like the old days of @thumblessprimate1 ... The same feeling of...you know this dude is working hard to produce good stuff.

Cheers!

Good Energy!

Sorce

 

[LCD35]

So spring in Idaho kinda snuck in. Outta no where we are hitting 60s and 70 is forecasted for tomorrow. On a whim, yesterday I went and checked stuff I buried in the flower bed for over wintering. Buds. Buds everywhere. Little green things all over branches. I spent most of the afternoon taking care of crab apples, pulling stuff out, cleaning up the muck and mulch, potting forsythia cuttings covered in flowers about to pop. Worms and slugs under all the pots. Then I notice the buds all over the Amur that weren't there two weeks ago.

 

[LCD35]

My daughter is home sick today. My wife can't take off, but the USAF is a bit more flexible. I went and checked with my boss, took care of a few things, grabbed the laptop and went home. After virtual work was complete, I headed to the back yard. I made the top cuts that I spent the past few weeks mulling. It slide out of the 5 gallon pot pretty easy. Sawed it in half. There were big, thick, gnarly roots from growing in nursery mulch. No surprise there. So, I used a big, thick, gnarly root hook a club member gave me at out last tree collecting party.

 

[LCD35]

The roots took a lot of work. After digging quita bit, I found what appeared to be the original base. As it sat in the nursery container for a few years, mulch and debris built up, which allowed new surface roots to grow. After ensuring I was right, I carefully trimmed the top layer to reveal the larger ones underneath. I was pleasantly surprised with what I found. It seems very promising. The bottom of the rootball is a mess. I trimmed everything flat and will reattack those in a few years with better tools.

 

[LCD35]

I sealed the cuts with duct putty from Home Depot. At first I had a hard time getting it to stick, as the putty was a little damp and sap was absolutely pouring out of the three wounds. I ensured I used enough soil to cover the nebari and let it continue to develop. I wanted to build a larger container, but don't have enough lumber to build a grow box. Another option out of reach is ground burying. One issue is the number of ground squirrels. I used to have a full grown crab apple in my backyard. Used too. Also, there is in ground irrigation and sprinklers that I have no control over. So, back in the original container for now. Not the best option, but the best I have. Now I wait.