Are you a Net Bonsai Wanker?

[Bill S]

Another fine tree Harry, that must have been some party.

Bet Dale will have a big grin over those comments.

 

[Marco Invernizzi]

Actually I do show how to use ICHIBAN every demo, workshop, private session and so on. Everybody is always very interested and everybody immediatly seems to be able to understand WHY Ichiban it's such a better tool then the ones of the tradition. What most of the people notice it's how healthier is the position of the body that works on bonsai using ICHIBAN. Less stress, less pain, more fun.
Then if someone wants to put a price tag on his or her health then I don't want to get into that.

Dear Victrinia, I accept your invitation and I'll be happy to give something to the bonsai community so I decide I'll be happy to give free bonsai advice. What about if we start with you? and you can be so kind to post on this thread a recent picture of you with your very best bonsai, and maybe some details too. Just the bonsai you consider most rapresentative on your collection.

 

[cascade]

Chuckle

Marco,

who was the Italian version of the NBW email for?

-dorothy

 

[Victrinia Ensor]

Il mio caro...

You have made the assumption that the best representative of my collection would benefit from your advice. I mean no disrespect whatsoever when I tell you it would not... and knowing how precious your time must be with preparing to leave on the wanker tour... I will not waste your time.

I think the community would be better served if you made this very kind and generous offer to another, and I have no doubt many will line up for the opportunity, and rightly so.

Molto grazie, ma nessun....You'll see an example of my work and style soon enough...



Kindest regards,

Victrinia

 

[greerhw]

Il mio caro...

You have made the assumption that the best representative of my collection would benefit from your advice. I mean no disrespect whatsoever when I tell you it would not... and knowing how precious your time must be with preparing to leave on the wanker tour... I will not waste your time.

I think the community would be better served if you made this very kind and generous offer to another, and I have no doubt many will line up for the opportunity, and rightly so.

Molto grazie, ma nessun....You'll see an example of my work and style soon enough...



Kindest regards,

Victrinia

Come on Vicky, if you've got it flaunt, just my opinion.
I for one would love to see your trees, not being a smartass, I love to see nice trees.....

keep it green,
Harry

 

[Victrinia Ensor]

My friend...

I'm not only unwilling to throw myself into "the well"... I have nothing to prove to Marco. His sincerity is suspect... given the tenor of all our exchanges. Even trying to be complimentary or concilatory has had no effect on changing his timbre... so why would I put something out there for him to try and pick apart? He's looking for a moment of comeuppance, and I have no motivation to play.

He can pick me apart later if he chooses...

My only sadness is disappointing you... for that I am truly sorry.

For my part, I hope he does genuinely help someone who needs it... it would be a very nice thing to see.

Kindest regards as ever,

Victrinia

 

[grog]

I told you if you hung around you could expect a suprise, Marco "the hack" Invernizzi, or in some circles "the marketing idiot" got around to styling my Itoigawa, once I got him off this board. I thought you would like to see the results, so you could judge for yourself, I'm the one in the hat. Since some people were a little upset about the redneck picture on Marco's website in the before & after section, we thought we would update the picture so as to not offend anyone again.

keep it green,
Harry

LINK: http://www.marcoinvernizzi.com/

Thanks Harry. I just peed a little. Beautiful tree just makes it better

 

[Smoke]

I told you if you hung around you could expect a suprise, Marco "the hack" Invernizzi, or in some circles "the marketing idiot" got around to styling my Itoigawa, once I got him off this board. I thought you would like to see the results, so you could judge for yourself, I'm the one in the hat. Since some people were a little upset about the redneck picture on Marco's website in the before & after section, we thought we would update the picture so as to not offend anyone again.

keep it green,
Harry

LINK: http://www.marcoinvernizzi.com/

Hey Harry, Does Marco know the "M" is backwards on his website?

Just thought he should know......

 

[Yamadori]

Hey Harry, Does Marco know the "M" is backwards on his website?

Just thought he should know......

Maybe it is so that if you read both letters backward it says I'm, as in the great I Am.

Ya gotta admit that his site design is pretty top notch. He really applies his art school education to the creativity of it.

 

[R_F]

Marco,

No-one has out right said that your tool is not good. I've never used it, but I can see how it would be a beneficial tool to have. But besides the start up cost (which you mentioned earlier) how do you justify charging $350 for it? Can you answer this question directly or no?


There are many new products out there that cost a lot to design and market but the sellers don't necessarily try to make all that money back by charging outrages prices for their product...which based on what you've posted about your start-up costs it sounds like that is what you are trying to do. I think the outrageous price is what most people have a problem with.

 

[Marco Invernizzi]

to RyanFree:
I think you missed the first thread on ICHIBAN on this blog. Please check:
http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2477&highlight=ichiban

Without trying to repeat myself I can tell you that:
1) Every ICHIBAN is hand made by the very best bonsai tool crafters in the world.
2) Every ICHIBAN is made of carbon stell, not average stell.
3) Every ICHIBAN is a result of 4 years of project and over 8 prototypes.
4) You can learn how to use ICHIBAN in all iis multi functions just by watching a great website. I don't recall any bonsai tools that has even an instruction sheet.
5) Every owner of ICHIBAN is entitled to be part of the ICHIBAN CLUB. Please check the website for details.

Now....... I could use average stell and get ICHIBAN made in China, I could forget about the website, the packaging, the honing-stone and the ICHIBAN CLUB. I could have simply come up with an idea and don't waste the last 4 years of my time searching for perfection and just do something average.
Maybe I could even get WallMart to sell ICHIBAN.

When I was 21, I left EVERYTHING in Italy to move to Japan with NOTHING in my hands and in my pockets, to become the 20th disciple of Masahiko Kimura who is disciple of Hamano Motosuke. The direct disciples or the disciples of the disciples of Motosuke are now leading the bonsai in Japan. Our school doesn't offer anything else then excellence. So if I, as the first bonsai master in history, come up with a new bonsai tool, I don't go cheap. I just do the very best I can my dear RyanFree.
Quality has a price. Get used to it.

To Yamadori:
the first thread of ICHIBAN got more than 14 thousands contacts...
this thread of ICHIBAN got more than 5 thoudands contacts....
sales are great...
now who is a marketing idiot?
and one more thing....I really wish I could have the great pleasure to meet you in person and have you to tell me in the face that I'm a marketing idiot.

To Vic:
I do critique trees for living so if I would turn people's tree apart I would be left with no job, so please trust me and the fact that at this point it would be very counterproductive for me to mistreat with no reason a bonsai enthusiast who has been so kind to join this interesting discussion.
Please let's talk one of your tree, if I cannot contribute to it, maybe someone else will on this thread

 

[DaveG]

Marco,

No-one has out right said that your tool is not good. I've never used it, but I can see how it would be a beneficial tool to have. But besides the start up cost (which you mentioned earlier) how do you justify charging $350 for it? Can you answer this question directly or no?


There are many new products out there that cost a lot to design and market but the sellers don't necessarily try to make all that money back by charging outrages prices for their product...which based on what you've posted about your start-up costs it sounds like that is what you are trying to do. I think the outrageous price is what most people have a problem with.

Ryan, I think I can answer this well enough for you from the perspective of someone who knows a bit about economics and pricing. And I'm writing this before Marco chimes in, because I don't think he has any more motivation to give you a straight answer than any other businessperson would. Though, why he'd be motivated to do most of what he's done in this thread so far is beyond reason.

Like any other businessperson, Marco is in business to make money. It seems that $350 is his chosen price point because it's meant to seem, financially, like a very good deal to anyone who hasn't purchased a full set of tools, but would like to if they just had the spare cash. His fancy scissors are presented as an acceptable low-cost alternative to a full set of tools, still high in quality and not lacking in function. I cannot confirm or deny that any of those things are accurate, but I do know that's how it's meant to appear.

I can't guess the exact incremental cost per unit of manufacturing the scissors, box, and cleaner, but it's probably in the range of $20 to $70 US. It could be more, but that would probably involve some pretty wasteful processes. For sake of discussion, let's suppose the incremental cost to make one is $70. If Marco set his price at $100, he could bring in $30 per unit and it might leave him with $5 per unit after production overhead, marketing, etc. But why would he do that if he can get $350 a pop, leaving him with $255 in profit to return his investment in development costs and fill his pockets with what's left over? Let's face facts; bonsai tools are a niche market and he's not likely to sell 50 times as many by dropping the price to $100. If he set the price too low it would probably also leave people thinking it's cheap. Remember, one of his major selling points is that this thing is an upgrade from traditional tools. Who knows if he could get the right people to try it and admit to doing so if the price were lowered.

My numbers are probably way off and I know it's more complicated than that, but the point is that he doesn't really have any incentive to lower his price. Sure, it's another reason I won't buy one and it's probably the same deal for a lot of people here. But I personally don't really care if he wants to price himself out of a lot of people buying it. I don't think I'm really missing out on anything. The best bonsai tools I currently own are an ancient pair of Gold Seal scissors, some nail clippers, and an X-Acto tool set. I'm perfectly happy working with that stuff until I get some better trees.

My own gripe is the attitude that comes with it. He appears to be changing that a little as well, but I don't see any reason to believe that change runs very deep. He seems to be putting on awfully thick skin for a guy who said the things he's said recently, even if his claims is that it was a marketing tactic. At least the whole thing is amusing.

Still, I figure he has as much right to post here as anyone else so long as he's following the rules. And if he honestly tries to contribute much more than marketing I'll try to be civil to him. I'd hope that anyone else here would try to do the same if he decides to turn over a new leaf, but at this point I don't know that I'd hold it against them if they didn't.

 

[R_F]

Marco,

Please don't take offense. I'm not bashing you or your tool....just questioning the price. I understand paying for quality and that many times you get what you pay for, but I also understand paying for hype.

Thanks for trying to answer my question, though you still mention points that to me still do not justify the price. But, thanks anyway and good luck to you.

 

[DaveV]

I really don't see any problem with his price. If people are buying it at $350, so what. He's open about the tool and has put a lot of time and effort into building a quality tool. If people don't like it, they don't buy it. After all, I know of small little houses in Cal. that sold for $400K and people bought them up like hot cakes. Lawyers charge $200.00/hr.( and that probably a low estimate), the guy that does my taxes probably charges the same. Though I don't have one of Marco's tool, I would much rather have his tool for $350 (probably have it for life) then pay $350 to my accountant for a couple of hours of work. If he can sell it for $350 and people are buying it, more power to him.

 

[John Romano]

Marco,
Thanks for trying to answer my question, though you still mention points that to me still do not justify the price. But, thanks anyway and good luck to you.

Hey Ryan,
I appreciate your questions about the Ichiban tool.
Besides my bonsai work, I have a small company that manufactures hand made portfolio boxes and folders for the art/design/photography market. I just want to say that regarding his first point about it being hand made - that goes a long way to justify the price for me. Labor for small quantities of any high quality item is what most goes into the price of that product. A lot of these high quality craftsmen (and women) are retiring or closing shop and no one is taking over their work. Kind of sad. For instance, I just heard that the Bigei kiln is no longer selling their fine bonsai pots.
BTW, I am in no way associated with Marco (though we share a common heritage!) but I wanted to offer my thoughts about this. It is not to say that everyone will buy it or can afford it (or have a use for it). I understand that but I can also see why it costs what it does. You can buy many kinds of knives, for instance, at many price points. The ones that are hand forged by 4th generation sword/knife makers in Japan cost much more - you are paying for this hand crafting and high quality steel, etc. (you can peruse the Japan Woodworker catalog to see some of these fine knives) It's just one example to make my point about high quality, hand made products.
John Romano

 

[chansen]

There are many new products out there that cost a lot to design and market but the sellers don't necessarily try to make all that money back by charging outrages prices for their product...which based on what you've posted about your start-up costs it sounds like that is what you are trying to do. I think the outrageous price is what most people have a problem with.

I'm writing this as I wait for my professor to come in and give us our corporate finance final...

Sellers do try to make all that money back, and they charge what they have to in order to accomplish that. If a new product isn't going to make the company money, then they aren't going to produce it. Marco should charge what he needs to make money on it. I can't say how much the production costs are, nor can I say what the SG&A costs are (selling, general, and administrative, basically all the other overhead). Most businesses consider a 3-5 year break even on new products as reasonable.

 

[irene_b]

18 Pages? Would you squawk at a tree for that price? How much is your time worth?
I don't own one but it is on my wish list...I hate to keep switching tools and like the idea of just 1 tool for many of the things I do...(And yes that does include wiring which contrary to popular beliefs I do use on occasion ). I don't understand the issue over the cost of the tools.... His marketing? I fail to see the issue there as well...And yes anytime you have this much discussion over a tool it will make sales...
Irene
(Going back to just reading now.....)

 

[the3rdon]

this is too funny... See if it can make 100 pages by summer...

 

[R_F]

I'm writing this as I wait for my professor to come in and give us our corporate finance final...

Sellers do try to make all that money back, and they charge what they have to in order to accomplish that. If a new product isn't going to make the company money, then they aren't going to produce it. Marco should charge what he needs to make money on it. I can't say how much the production costs are, nor can I say what the SG&A costs are (selling, general, and administrative, basically all the other overhead). Most businesses consider a 3-5 year break even on new products as reasonable.

I understand this. I think you have quoted me out of context. No business is in the business of gift giving. They're in business to make a profit. Notice in my quote I said that they don't charge "outrageous" prices to make their money back. Unless of course the product is built on hype and they do charge excessive amounts because they know people will pay for it in order to achieve a certain perceived status in society, clubs, etc. This applies especially to clothing, cars, etc.

Reminds me of my very wealthy cousin who refused to purchase an SUV with the "Nissan" label, it had to have their sister company's label of "Infinity". It's only a name but the perceived status to him was more important and he was willing to pay a substantial amount more for it.

So is the Ichiban more of a status thing? I think that's what is at the heart of this Net Bonsai Wanker email. Marco has subtly stated that it's all about status. Everything else that the tool does or is made of doesn't really drive the price when compared to the perceived status one achieves by owning one.

 

[Marco Invernizzi]

thank you very much ALL for your contribution to this thread. Most of all I'm glad to see that among the many of you there actually people who know business.

Have you guys spent half an hour of your time to visit www.ichiban.it and learn about this tool?

ICHIBAN it's not a product that doesn't fulfill its advertising claims. It really does works. Do you think that Masakuni has nothing better to do to put its name on ease just to please a marketing idiot like myself?

ICHIBAN has nothing to do with the level of your skills of the quality of your bonsai. It's an instument that helps EVERYBODY to do more work in less time and most of all, help you to does it all in a more confortable way.

I'm sure that lots of bonsaist who claim that ICHIBAN is too expensive go to a good restaurant saying that $15 is too much for salad or to a Porsche dealer saying that the new Cayenne GTS should cost $50.000.