Bald cypress with pale yellow foliage

Johnathan

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Whenever I see a video or picture of collected BC, they have very very little roots, would it be possible to just kinda start over everything and do a really hard root prune? Prolly a question for @Mellow Mullet
 

Mellow Mullet

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OK @Mellow Mullet @Dav4 and whoever else that's still following. I went ahead and pulled it out of the can again. It appears I still have root Mealy bugs. Way less white spots but still a couple. Also saw tiny little white bugs that moved rather fast. Faster then I'd suspect root aphid to move. Also killed some of the roots it appears. No more happy white tip roots only a few emerging out of some of the dead roots. Looks like root rot-ish. Doubt you can overwater this thing so I would suspect that it was the Malathion that did the damage. So now I'm at a bit of a conundrum. I know I have a infestation but also know that the treatment is probably killing my roots too. Obviously I don't wanna leave those little basterds in there to just multiply multiply multiply and develop the original population but also nervous that I'll kill more roots and possibly the tree if I treat again.

If you mixed it according to the instructions, it shouldn't kill the roots. Plus, if it did, the damage would not be apparent so quickly. I suspect that the damage was done by the infestation itself. I would treat it again and carefully follow the mixing instructions, if aren't already. I have mixed it and poured it directly onto my soil surface, which drained into the tub that I have it immersed in and did not flush for a day or so - no damage.
 

Mellow Mullet

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Whenever I see a video or picture of collected BC, they have very very little roots, would it be possible to just kinda start over everything and do a really hard root prune? Prolly a question for @Mellow Mullet

I don't know, all of mine are grown from seed. It stands to reason that it could be an option, but this tree I weak and I would not try it.
 

Mellow Mullet

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One thing you could also try is maybe get a bigger pot and just up-pot it without disturbing the roots. Plop it in the pot and backfill with new soil.
 

Bonsaihead

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@Mellow Mullet I honestly think I went light on the mix. I didn't see directions for submerging. Only for a sprayer which basically said 1 to 2 tablespoons per gallon depending on what bugs you're dealing with. Well considering it's in "I think" a 20 gallon pot I just mixed up a gallon as directed then poured into pot that was in large tub while it was filling up from the water hose. I honestly think I went too light and after finding this nugget I think I need to change weapons Screenshot_20180802-230206.pngScreenshot_20180802-230242.png
 

rockm

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Have you considered heat damage to the root system. I used to get yellowing foliage on my BC at the end of summer. The trees were in mostly sun all day. Covered the pots with a white towel when temperatures were set to be over 90. Helped a great deal...
 

theone420

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Have you considered heat damage to the root system. I used to get yellowing foliage on my BC at the end of summer. The trees were in mostly sun all day. Covered the pots with a white towel when temperatures were set to be over 90. Helped a great deal...

lol above 90....hahahahaha I have mine in the sun 80% of the day(no morning sun) and it has gone above 120 for the past 3 weeks about twice a week and above 110 the rest of the time and at 3am its still about 100 degrees outside. I have mine in a small tub of water like 4" tall and it sits there happy except when my new puppy drags it around the yard so he can get at the tub of water.lol No yellowing at all. maybe mine has adapted since early in spring i got some yellow but after a bit of iron it got its color back and has been a nice green all summer.
Its amazing how tolerant these trees are to almost anything I am finding out. my puppy has dumped most the soil out of this tree 3 times now and it just pouts for a day and its back to its normal self the next day. it loves its tub of water i tried to take it out for a week and it did ok but you could tell it wasnt as happy.

do you let yours sit in a tub of water all day? I cant believe these mealy bugs can live under water like that.

here is a decent article in regards to root mealy bugs......oddly enough it mentions soaking the tree roots in 120 degree water for 10 minutes to kill them. however they say it is hard to keep the water at that temp the entire 10 minutes. Maybe this is something i wont have to worry about since my tree sits in a tub of water that must get close to 120 degree. lol
https://laidbackgardener.blog/2017/02/10/root-mealybugs-death-from-below/
 

Bonsaihead

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So apparently root mealy bugs drink malathion as milk. Damn things are unstoppable. About a week ago I poured about half the bottle in there. I don't even think it slowed them down. Think I'm gonna roll the dice and go for broke. Figure before I just throw away the tree, I might as well try bare root repotting it, throw away all old soil,
new pot and rise tree. If it dies, it dies.
 

Dav4

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So apparently root mealy bugs drink malathion as milk. Damn things are unstoppable. About a week ago I poured about half the bottle in there. I don't even think it slowed them down. Think I'm gonna roll the dice and go for broke. Figure before I just throw away the tree, I might as well try bare root repotting it, throw away all old soil,
new pot and rise tree. If it dies, it dies.
I wouldn't do that... almost guaranteed to kill the tree. I think your tree needs to be treated with a systemic insecticide applied as a soil drench....
 

Bonsaihead

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I wouldn't do that... almost guaranteed to kill the tree. I think your tree needs to be treated with a systemic insecticide applied as a soil drench....
Yeah I've pretty much have come to terms with it. Honestly just starting to worry more and more about the rest of my trees getting infested (hopefully not too late). Everything I've read says chemicals don't really work including systemics. Believe me I was shocked that half a bottle of malathion didn't even faze them. I submerged the hole rootball in it for a couple of hours too. Do you had any experience killing them with a systemic? I do hope so! I hope you tell me everything I've read is dead wrong.
 

Dav4

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Yeah I've pretty much have come to terms with it. Honestly just starting to worry more and more about the rest of my trees getting infested (hopefully not too late). Everything I've read says chemicals don't really work including systemics. Believe me I was shocked that half a bottle of malathion didn't even faze them. I submerged the hole rootball in it for a couple of hours too. Do you had any experience killing them with a systemic? I do hope so! I hope you tell me everything I've read is dead wrong.
Nope, never had them. I'd still rather try something that might work rather then something almost destined to fail. Fwiw, malathion isn't a systemic and that's what I think you need.
 

Dav4

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Just did a quick google search for you and found something over at the IBC site... apparently, @johng has successfully treated root aphid infestation on baldies with orthene, an ant killer. He sprinkles the surface with the powder, then lightly waters in... repeats in 2-3 weeks. He'll even take the tree out of the pot and sprinkle the orthene on the sides of the rootball. I'd try this...
 

Bonsaihead

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Well definitely a huge thanks for checking into that for me. But apparently the big difference between the root aphids and root mealy bug is the very dense membrane tunnels that they create. It's pretty much impenetrable to chemicals and predatory nematodes. I think for any chemicals to work, it would need to be a total submerge treatment and for a very long time hoping that the chemical finds a way to seep in. The only thing I've read that people have actually killed root mealy bugs with is using a 120 degree water until the hole rootball reaches 115. Problem is, keeping that much water that hot for long enough
 

Brad in GR

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Recycling this thread in hopes of guidance. I have two bald cypress growing in a raised bed. This is their second growing season in the ground- survived Michigan winter fine.
One is growing vigorously - the other is a weakling/looks sickly. You can see the contrast in the pictures. Soil is same (fertilome pear based organic potting soil), fertilizing schedule the same.

Recycling this thread per the yellow leaves mention. I notice even on the healthy BC, there is an area with this yellowing/brown out.

Watering is same for both, they get soaked every day in the bed.

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Leo in N E Illinois

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I would take a real close look for spider mites, or any of the dozen or so species of plant sucking arachnids. Look for webs, especially on the underside of leaves. If positive, treat for mites. I can't see the bastards with naked eye, but I recognize them by the damage they do. This is only a partial fit, I'm not convinced its mites, but it doesn't hurt to do a close inspection.

If negative for mites. Could your bed be staying too wet? Not possible with bald cypress. I guess I'd shoot for nutrient deficiency.

Iron supplement. Or Iron and Magnesium. If you have any commercial big box store iron fertilizer, a dose would be a good idea. Also for magnesium, a dose of Epsom Salts, available in the Rx part of your big box store, maybe $4 for a 2 pound bag of Epsom Salts, which is magnesium sulfate. I use roughly 1 teaspoon per gallon of Epsom salts. You can add Epsom salts to the fertilizer solution you make up with the iron supplement. But don't add epsom salts to a fertilizer that includes calcium. Some of the Dynagrow and the MSU formulas include calcium. In solution when a calcium salt, such as calcium nitrate comes in contact with a sulfate in solution, such as ammonium sulfate or magnesium sulfate, the calcium bonds to the sulfate to make gypsum, calcium sulfate. Gypsum is insoluble in water, with form a fine sludge at the bottom of your container and in your bonsai media. The sulfate and the calcium in gypsum are largely unavailable as plant nutrients. Its possible some mycorrhiza could, over time liberate the sulfur and the calcium as plant nutrients, but that is a slow process. The immediate effect of mixing magnesium sulfate with a calcium nitrate solution is that both the calcium and the sulfur become unavailable as plant nutrients.

So epsom salts, with iron supplement, either at the same time or in rapid succession. The response should be quick. If the color is not better in less than a week, something else is the problem.
 

Brad in GR

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I would take a real close look for spider mites, or any of the dozen or so species of plant sucking arachnids. Look for webs, especially on the underside of leaves. If positive, treat for mites. I can't see the bastards with naked eye, but I recognize them by the damage they do. This is only a partial fit, I'm not convinced its mites, but it doesn't hurt to do a close inspection.

If negative for mites. Could your bed be staying too wet? Not possible with bald cypress. I guess I'd shoot for nutrient deficiency.

Iron supplement. Or Iron and Magnesium. If you have any commercial big box store iron fertilizer, a dose would be a good idea. Also for magnesium, a dose of Epsom Salts, available in the Rx part of your big box store, maybe $4 for a 2 pound bag of Epsom Salts, which is magnesium sulfate. I use roughly 1 teaspoon per gallon of Epsom salts. You can add Epsom salts to the fertilizer solution you make up with the iron supplement. But don't add epsom salts to a fertilizer that includes calcium. Some of the Dynagrow and the MSU formulas include calcium. In solution when a calcium salt, such as calcium nitrate comes in contact with a sulfate in solution, such as ammonium sulfate or magnesium sulfate, the calcium bonds to the sulfate to make gypsum, calcium sulfate. Gypsum is insoluble in water, with form a fine sludge at the bottom of your container and in your bonsai media. The sulfate and the calcium in gypsum are largely unavailable as plant nutrients. Its possible some mycorrhiza could, over time liberate the sulfur and the calcium as plant nutrients, but that is a slow process. The immediate effect of mixing magnesium sulfate with a calcium nitrate solution is that both the calcium and the sulfur become unavailable as plant nutrients.

So epsom salts, with iron supplement, either at the same time or in rapid succession. The response should be quick. If the color is not better in less than a week, something else is the problem.
You're the man Leo! Thanks. Did some googling today and landed on alkaline/iron deficiency. Going to start with an Iron chelate first and then will go for magnesium thereafter. Trees look clean. Getting a lot of water.

I noticed that I had put very pine bark/organic-ish mulch on top of the soil last winter for insulation - I removed that mulch from the healthier looking of the two in spring, but left it on top of the soil for the sickly looking one. I'm thinking maybe a connection there...
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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You're the man Leo! Thanks. Did some googling today and landed on alkaline/iron deficiency. Going to start with an Iron chelate first and then will go for magnesium thereafter. Trees look clean. Getting a lot of water.

I noticed that I had put very pine bark/organic-ish mulch on top of the soil last winter for insulation - I removed that mulch from the healthier looking of the two in spring, but left it on top of the soil for the sickly looking one. I'm thinking maybe a connection there...

The magnesium sulfate - epsom salts - are a pretty "benign" nutrient supplement. Even if it is not what is really needed, it is not possible to do harm with the relatively low dose I suggested. Though, there is a mild warning. Were you to weekly do this low dose, and exclude other fertilizers, eventually you would see that one effect of excess magnesium is to force flowering. You don't want the tree to produce flowers in September. But you would have to stop all other fertilizer in order for this effect to display symptoms. I once deliberately sent a pomegranate into a bloom cycle that lasted an entire growing season doing this. Virtually zero new growth, just bloom after bloom. The tree was nearly exhausted by the time I was able to get it out of the "magnesium induced bloom cycle". Just a little weird aside. But you would have to "work at it" to duplicate my error.

So give a dose of both. It won't hurt.

The compost may have shifted pH low enough iron uptake may have been slowed, or possibly the mycorrhiza in the compost are / were out competing the BC for available nutrients. Either cause is easily solved by more regular dosing with fertilizer. Especially the iron supplement. Kelp is a good source of micronutrients. Iron and magnesium are both closer to macro-nutrients, rather than micro-nutrients. Magnesium should be available at about twice the rate of Phosphorous, so where nitrogen is 10, phosphorous should be about 0.9 to 1.2 depending on author. The magnesium should be 2 to 4 depending on author.

So a dose of epsom salts really should be a regular occurance. I dose fertilizer weakly, weekly, and once a month it is a dose of epsom salts, unless my fertilizer specifically contains magnesium. Some do, some don't. Here reading labels helps.

When you see me in person, you can buy some of the fertilizer I use on the farm, its high quality MSU formulated "good stuff". Details via PM.
 

TrunkTickler

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Have you removed the tree from the pot and looked at the roots? Are they black, mushy and smell? If that's the case you have root rot meaning an emergency repot.
Hi Vance,
Found this thread because I had similar foilage problem with my BC. I took a look at my roots and could smell the rot. Cut the pot open and there is many rotted roots and some white mold.

My concern is being that it is September and I'm in lower ontario, I fear there won't be alot of time for recovery before the end of the season.

Should I still remove the rot and loose soil now or wait until spring?
 
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