Benjofen's 2020-25 Azalea Contest Entry

Benjofen

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I know I'm behind on this one. Entering mainly just to track my progress on these. That said, here are my two Azaleas the day I picked up (according to the pic time stamp 6/20/21).

I've trimmed them back since. I'll have to take current pics later.

1:

IMG_20210620_114037534.jpg

2:

IMG_20210620_115546157.jpg
 

Deep Sea Diver

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Welcome to the contest!

Looking forward to seeing the after images.

Which cultivars are these?

cheers
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Benjofen

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Welcome to the contest!

Looking forward to seeing the after images.

Which cultivars are these?

cheers
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Thanks!

I believe these are both Girard Pleasant White, but I apparently tossed the card like an idiot.
 

Deep Sea Diver

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Girards Pleasant White (Kathy Ann x Claire Marie) is a good choice for your area as it’s a cold tolerant azalea that came out of Ohio by a breeder (Pete Girard) whose goal was to produce cold hardy azaleas so northern folk could appreciate azaleas. Azalea is reputed to do well up to zone 5.

It’s reputed to grow up to 2x wider then tall, so be aware of that. It has moderately big flowers, something to keep in mind in your design.

cheers
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Benjofen

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Finally getting around to uploading some udpates.

Did initial pruning to try and get some sense of direction for each tree.

#1: that said, I'm not sure how to proceed with this one yet, but it's young and small compared to the other, and it has a few promising leader shoots. Decided to mostly leave the basal shoots as they are to keep the young buck going strong.

IMG_20210818_201330580.jpg

Tree 2: Mistakes were made. Is azalea deadwood a thing? Guess I'll find out!

IMG_20210818_200926019.jpg
 

Deep Sea Diver

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Ok, can I suggest that number one goal is to keep your tree alive for the winter? If you haven’t a plan for this, now’s the time to do so. Between now and then, treat it normally, fertlize lightly until end of September, then no more.

At this point I'm wondering if you just completed the cutback shown on the second photo? If so, and your tree survives through to next spring, please make a note on your calendar to complete all cutbacks next year by the first week of July. You can slide a week if needed, but no later…. unless you have a greenhouse, or a really good cold frame.. If the cutback wasn’t done recently, when did you do the cutback?

The reason cutbacks aren’t done in Mid July on is to allow budback and time for the buds to grow out and harden. Late cutbacks expose tender young buds to the elements, killing them off.

Deadwood on an azalea is not a thing. It’s been tried, it can be done, takes a lot of maintenance and doesn’t last long. Also it rarely adds to the design. Well placed ramified branches and properly space flowers do. Please cut off the macerated branch and cut paste all wounds. btw Heavy bending and wiring in August isn’t a thing either.

Finally, azaleas have a hard time building their apex, being bushes not trees…..so apical branches are not normally cut back, but praised and treated to lighter pruning then the stronger basal branches.

cheers
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Pitoon

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I know I'm behind on this one. Entering mainly just to track my progress on these. That said, here are my two Azaleas the day I picked up (according to the pic time stamp 6/20/21).

I've trimmed them back since. I'll have to take current pics later.

1:

View attachment 388876

2:

View attachment 388877
Welcome to the contest! Please select one tree for your contest entry. If that one dies you may reenter another entry that has been untouched.
 

Benjofen

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Welcome to the contest! Please select one tree for your contest entry. If that one dies you may reenter another entry that has been untouched.

How long do I have to decide? I didn't realize we could only submit 1. Both trees were basically bushes when I submitted so if one dies can I continue with the other?

I think #2 has more potential but am a little concerned about it surviving the winter since I accidentally smashed one of the larger branches mid-July.
 

Benjofen

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Ok, can I suggest that number one goal is to keep your tree alive for the winter? If you haven’t a plan for this, now’s the time to do so. Between now and then, treat it normally, fertlize lightly until end of September, then no more.

At this point I'm wondering if you just completed the cutback shown on the second photo? If so, and your tree survives through to next spring, please make a note on your calendar to complete all cutbacks next year by the first week of July. You can slide a week if needed, but no later…. unless you have a greenhouse, or a really good cold frame.. If the cutback wasn’t done recently, when did you do the cutback?

The reason cutbacks aren’t done in Mid July on is to allow budback and time for the buds to grow out and harden. Late cutbacks expose tender young buds to the elements, killing them off.

Deadwood on an azalea is not a thing. It’s been tried, it can be done, takes a lot of maintenance and doesn’t last long. Also it rarely adds to the design. Well placed ramified branches and properly space flowers do. Please cut off the macerated branch and cut paste all wounds. btw Heavy bending and wiring in August isn’t a thing either.

Finally, azaleas have a hard time building their apex, being bushes not trees…..so apical branches are not normally cut back, but praised and treated to lighter pruning then the stronger basal branches.

cheers
DSD sends
Thanks for the response!

Yes, I'm fully concerned about tree #2. The snapping off of that branch was just a clumsy mistake, I wasn't trying to wire it but now I'm concerned about winter survival with so much of the foliage and vascular tissue being removed as well. FWIW I did this work first or second week of July I believe, I'm just forgetful with documenting my work. However there are several buds that are just now popping that are making me anxious. We've had a bit of a late heat wave here. I do have some cold protection but as you can imagine in Chicago that may only go so far with a weakened tree.

This is my maiden voyage with azaleas. In the past I've extended the growing season a couple of weeks for trees that needed it by putting them under strong grow lights before the temps cool, but I realize these are probably more fragile than I'm used to where cold is concerned. It does seem like this cultivar is at least more cold hardy than some
 

Deep Sea Diver

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Hmm, The cultivar you have is a cold hardy azalea. It’s rated for zone 5. Not many azaleas can handle that. Yet some decent precautions for bonsai plants for your area are in order. @Leo in N E Illinois would be really good resource.

Can I ask what’s your present plan for wintering over?

As far as the two selections go, I always chose the younger one unless the older has some particularly redeeming quality. Pretty funny considering my age! I actually was doing preliminary wiring on young azaleas I am growing out. These give me plenty of options. With luck I have another 45 days of growing left on these guys…

image.jpg
image.jpg

That said…. While both look ok health wise to me I’d start with #1 myself as stated above and work #2 in the background simultaneously. This way you will learn a lot on your voyage of bonsai discovery.

Cheers!
DSD sends
 

Benjofen

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Hmm, The cultivar you have is a cold hardy azalea. It’s rated for zone 5. Not many azaleas can handle that. Yet some decent precautions for bonsai plants for your area are in order. @Leo in N E Illinois would be really good resource.

Can I ask what’s your present plan for wintering over?

As far as the two selections go, I always chose the younger one unless the older has some particularly redeeming quality. Pretty funny considering my age! I actually was doing preliminary wiring on young azaleas I am growing out. These give me plenty of options. With luck I have another 45 days of growing left on these guys…

View attachment 394373
View attachment 394374

That said…. While both look ok health wise to me I’d start with #1 myself as stated above and work #2 in the background simultaneously. This way you will learn a lot on your voyage of bonsai discovery.t,

Cheers!
DSD sends
I have what I would call a pseudo-greenhouse as in a 3-4 foot tall shelf that I cover in thick plastic for the winter. The last few years this in combination with just a big plastic tub full of insulation has worked pretty well. I can only recall a chinese elm dying while overwintering whose overwinter habits seem to vary depending who you ask.

I also have a cold room in the house that I can shelter trees for a day or two when it gets shockingly cold (no central heating just in that one room...the 70s were wild). I think it tends to be around 50 in there without a space heater running.

I tend to assume I will get less vigorous growth than some as I only have a balcony and can't plant things in the ground which is part of why I was leaning #2. That said, #1 probably does have better long term prospects.

I also considered making a clump style out of the two since I'm not sure what kind of trunk thickening I can expect in the next 4 years on these. Doesn't seem to be a whole lot of info out there on that and I'm not convinced it would work on these with the fairly straight lower trunks.IMG_20201125_145510777.jpg
 
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Deep Sea Diver

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Thanks for sharing. I’m no longer an expert on Chicago weather, having left years ago. Around here that would work just fine if your rig were against a wall and the floor was insulated…. Except for the long cold spells.

I had a couple plastic tent line cold frames the I used for a couple years and dug the azaleas etc in ground with wood chips underneath that worked all year. Now these were replaced by cold greenhouse.

Simplified version. Trunks grow based upon the branch and solar panel input flowing down the trunk. Each branch contributes to the trunk area below it. The lowest branch contributes to the trunk below.

The next contributes to building up the trunk area between below it…. etc etc. So the more branches and solar panels on each, the more girth the trunk with add…

When developing azaleas one prunes off branches and solar panels… showing the trunk growth. There’s a couple competing methods to do this….

It’s a trade off between the two schools of thought evinced on this platform….

First…. a total cut back and grow out everything all at once.

Second …cut back the absolute minimum amount of what one needs while still preserving sap flow …thus preserving vigor and also more locations to grow solar panels …so more branch and foliage growth can occur over the same time as a total cut down… due to those already conserved locations … and also to preserving a decent level of vigor in the tree.

I’m of the latter opinion …and from what has been posted on nursery azalea projects shown in the past two years , it’s-a minority opinion.

…hope that answers your question.

Cheers
DSD sends
 

Benjofen

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I have what I would call a pseudo-greenhouse as in a 3-4 foot tall shelf that I cover in thick plastic for the winter. The last few years this in combination with just a big plastic tub full of insulation has worked pretty well. I can only recall a chinese elm dying while overwintering whose overwinter habits seem to vary depending who you ask.

I also happen to have a cold room in the house that I can shelter trees for a day or two when it gets shockingly cold (no central heating just in that one room...the 70s were wild). I think it tends to be around 50 in there without a space heater running.

I tend to assume I will get less vigorous growth than some as I only have a balcony and can't plant things in the ground which is part of why I chose #2. That said, #1 probably does have better long term prospects.

I also considered making a clump style out of the two since I'm not sure what kind of trunk thickening I can expect in the next 4 years on these. Doesn't seem to be a whole lot of info out there on that and I'm not convinced it would work on these with the fairly straight lower trunks.

Thanks for sharing. I’m no longer an expert on Chicago weather, having left years ago. Around here that would work just fine if your rig were against a wall and the floor was insulated…. Except for the long cold spells.

I had a couple plastic tent line cold frames the I used for a couple years and dug the azaleas etc in ground with wood chips underneath that worked all year. Now these were replaced by cold greenhouse.

Simplified version. Trunks grow based upon the branch and solar panel input flowing down the trunk. Each branch contributes to the trunk area below it. The lowest branch contributes to the trunk below.

The next contributes to building up the trunk area between below it…. etc etc. So the more branches and solar panels on each, the more girth the trunk with add…

When developing azaleas one prunes off branches and solar panels… showing the trunk growth. There’s a couple competing methods to do this….

It’s a trade off between the two schools of thought evinced on this platform….

First…. a total cut back and grow out everything all at once.

Second …cut back the absolute minimum amount of what one needs while still preserving sap flow …thus preserving vigor and also more locations to grow solar panels …so more branch and foliage growth can occur over the same time as a total cut down… due to those already conserved locations … and also to preserving a decent level of vigor in the tree.

I’m of the latter opinion …and from what has been posted on nursery azalea projects shown in the past two years , it’s-a minority opinion.

…hope that answers your question.

Cheers
DSD sends
Yes I understand I just meant being confined in pots I'm unsure how quickly azalea trunks would thicken. I know some species will thicken in a few years even in a training pot just not sure if azalea is of that mold. I've gotten answers on that ranging from 3-5 years to effectively never
 

Deep Sea Diver

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Azaleas can thicken in pots if one slightly up pots every year or two as the tree gets root bound…. giving it room to run. Not as much as in the field but better then in one pot!

best
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Benjofen

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Azaleas can thicken in pots if one slightly up pots every year or two as the tree gets root bound…. giving it room to run. Not as much as in the field but better then in one pot!

best
DSD sends
Had these guys on sale at HD today so I picked one up. Might try out a clinical trial on the two options you mentioned above since I've already trimmed the others.

IMG_20210828_115832203.jpg
 

Deep Sea Diver

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Awesome idea! Great minds think alike!

I’ve actually done that here too during the past two years. You learn a real lot and gain confidence by doing comparative studies like this. I actually began with a cool dozen assorted Nuccios azaleas 3 years ago. This year worked many more plants… but on a couple different efforts, growing whips from cuttings, feasibility and methods of styling 1, 2, and 3 year old nursery plants, method, effectiveness and practicality of in ground styling, durability of azalea nursery media and wintering over needs. My better half always asks when a new shipment arrives or batch of cuttings are struck, “Do you think we have enough azaleas now?

So go for it, it would be really cool to see your results…. but wait until next Spring if you want to see the very best results.

cheers
DSD sends
 

Benjofen

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Awesome idea! Great minds think alike!

I’ve actually done that here too during the past two years. You learn a real lot and gain confidence by doing comparative studies like this. I actually began with a cool dozen assorted Nuccios azaleas 3 years ago. This year worked many more plants… but on a couple different efforts, growing whips from cuttings, feasibility and methods of styling 1, 2, and 3 year old nursery plants, method, effectiveness and practicality of in ground styling, durability of azalea nursery media and wintering over needs. My better half always asks when a new shipment arrives or batch of cuttings are struck, “Do you think we have enough azaleas now?

So go for it, it would be really cool to see your results…. but wait until next Spring if you want to see the very best results.

cheers
DSD sends
Yeah the plan for this one (and I guess all of them) is to not touch it until next May or so, i.e. whenever the blooms fade. I removed some dead blooms still on the new kid but that should be it for now.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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@Benjofen - Nice view from your balcony. The fog makes it hard to tell what direction you are facing. I'd guess you are up north near Loyola, Sheridan Road and Petersen or Devon, or you are down near University of Chicago. You could be just south of the Loop. Am I right on one of my 3 guesses?

For wintering, all the azaleas have enough "sub-tropical genes" that wintering them in your unheated room might be better. The 50 F will hold them semi-dormant for much of the winter. If you use modern LED, you should have enough light intensity that if they do start growing, you can keep the foliage compact. Leave them outside until temps are cold enough that you are getting frosts regularly. Move them to the unheated room when night time temps are supposed to go below 28 F. The hardy Girard azaleas should actually do okay freezing solid. The ground normally stays quite a bit warmer than air temp, I really would not allow the roots to freeze below about 28 F. In the Chicago area, most of the azaleas sold for landscape use are the Deciduous types, and I have found they do not survive our winters unless the pot is buried into the ground.

Myself, I gave up on trying to winter azalea outdoors. So my collection is mostly the more subtropical, zone 7 & 8 azalea, I winter mine in my underground well house, in complete darkness. They come out in spring when the leaves of landscape maples (street trees) are about 25% to 50% unfurled. They come out after the Norway maples have flowered, they flower while leafless, once the Norway maples start to unfurl leaves, it is usually safe to bring trees out from winter shelter.

I have also wintered azaleas, especially "florist's azaleas" under lights with my orchids. This light set up was in the basement, and temps would be in the middle to low 60's F when the lights were off (night). The lights would heat up the room a few degrees. Most azalea have enough "sub-tropical genes" that wintering in the low 60s is possible. they may bloom a month or two earlier than they would when wintered in the ground or a well house, but since you don't have any ground, and are not lucky enough to live in a 100 year old house that came equipped with a well house, your unheated room is a safer bet. The zone 5 hardy azalea are "barely zone 5 hardy".

I have found spruce, Black Hills Picea glauca var, and Picea orientalis and Picea pugens the Colorado blue spruce, Pinus sylvestris, Pinus banksiana, mugo pine, Canadian hemlock, Siberian elm, both American hornbeam and Korean hornbeam, Amelanchier, crabapple (Malus), and a fair number of other trees listed hardy into zone 4b or colder to be hardy enough that I just follow the "drop or plop" method of just setting their pots on the ground for the winter. No healing in, no fancy plastic tents, pile a few leaves around. Often leaves get blown away before spring. These species likely will do well on your balcony all winter. I would take some cheap beer coolers, set the trees inside, add a half filled with water plastic soda bottle or two for "Thermal Mass", then tape the coolers shut for the winter. Stack them against the outer wall of the building and forget them. The water in the pop bottles will slow freezing in the cooler, and slow thawing in the cooler. This will help lessen "Freeze-Thaw Cycling". Most trees do great if they freeze once, stay frozen all winter, then thaw in spring. It is rapid freeze-thaw cycling that is really rough on trees.

I have had good luck just setting a normal form "lacebark" Chinese elm on the ground. It has survived the last 5 winters that way. I got mine from Brussel's. But many have had trouble wintering Chinese elm in the Chicago area, so while "Plop or Drop" technique works for me, I have heard many have trouble. The Chinese elm cultivars 'Seiju' and 'Corticosa' do not survive my "Plop n Drop' technique. I found I have to winter them in my unheated well house.

Siberian elms are everywhere in the city, Ulmus pumila, and I found them pretty good so far for bonsai. Mine are still in Anderson flats. They form a nice rough bark relatively young (decade or so). They are "free" as they are a wildly invasive weed around the city. They do require full sun, sunrise to sunset sun, if one side of the tree gets shaded too long, it will drop branches on the shaded side of the tree, so rotate them often. Other than the need for full sun, they are super hardy, drought tolerant and decent, small leaf, twiggy elm.
 

Benjofen

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@Benjofen - Nice view from your balcony. The fog makes it hard to tell what direction you are facing. I'd guess you are up north near Loyola, Sheridan Road and Petersen or Devon, or you are down near University of Chicago. You could be just south of the Loop. Am I right on one of my 3 guesses?

I'm in Lincoln Park facing SW. Pretty good sunlight for a covered balcony! The view is tricky because our street goes against the grid so it's kinda disorienting. I used to have business "trips" up your way to visit our Client at Abbott Labs.

For wintering, all the azaleas have enough "sub-tropical genes" that wintering them in your unheated room might be better. The 50 F will hold them semi-dormant for much of the winter. If you use modern LED, you should have enough light intensity that if they do start growing, you can keep the foliage compact. Leave them outside until temps are cold enough that you are getting frosts regularly. Move them to the unheated room when night time temps are supposed to go below 28 F. The hardy Girard azaleas should actually do okay freezing solid. The ground normally stays quite a bit warmer than air temp, I really would not allow the roots to freeze below about 28 F. In the Chicago area, most of the azaleas sold for landscape use are the Deciduous types, and I have found they do not survive our winters unless the pot is buried into the ground.

Myself, I gave up on trying to winter azalea outdoors. So my collection is mostly the more subtropical, zone 7 & 8 azalea, I winter mine in my underground well house, in complete darkness. They come out in spring when the leaves of landscape maples (street trees) are about 25% to 50% unfurled. They come out after the Norway maples have flowered, they flower while leafless, once the Norway maples start to unfurl leaves, it is usually safe to bring trees out from winter shelter.

I have also wintered azaleas, especially "florist's azaleas" under lights with my orchids. This light set up was in the basement, and temps would be in the middle to low 60's F when the lights were off (night). The lights would heat up the room a few degrees. Most azalea have enough "sub-tropical genes" that wintering in the low 60s is possible. they may bloom a month or two earlier than they would when wintered in the ground or a well house, but since you don't have any ground, and are not lucky enough to live in a 100 year old house that came equipped with a well house, your unheated room is a safer bet. The zone 5 hardy azalea are "barely zone 5 hardy".

Interesting. There is some dispute whether I'm actually in zone 5 or 6 but the USDA map I checked said 6. Either way, I'm not sure these will work out either. The new Azalea I picked up claims to be hardy to -20F. That's in the ground presumably. We shall see. Similar to what I said before I'm considering doing controlled experiments with pairs of the same species to find out what exactly works in my unusual situation. I'm not sure I'm cut out for Azaleas yet! The problem with the unheated room is that it's also my only bathroom so It will be heated for bursts a couple times a day (i.e. showers). but It's also right up against an exterior wall so it cools back down quickly.

I have found spruce, Black Hills Picea glauca var, and Picea orientalis and Picea pugens the Colorado blue spruce, Pinus sylvestris, Pinus banksiana, mugo pine, Canadian hemlock, Siberian elm, both American hornbeam and Korean hornbeam, Amelanchier, crabapple (Malus), and a fair number of other trees listed hardy into zone 4b or colder to be hardy enough that I just follow the "drop or plop" method of just setting their pots on the ground for the winter. No healing in, no fancy plastic tents, pile a few leaves around. Often leaves get blown away before spring. These species likely will do well on your balcony all winter. I would take some cheap beer coolers, set the trees inside, add a half filled with water plastic soda bottle or two for "Thermal Mass", then tape the coolers shut for the winter. Stack them against the outer wall of the building and forget them. The water in the pop bottles will slow freezing in the cooler, and slow thawing in the cooler. This will help lessen "Freeze-Thaw Cycling". Most trees do great if they freeze once, stay frozen all winter, then thaw in spring. It is rapid freeze-thaw cycling that is really rough on trees.

That's a cool idea! I'm not entirely familiar with Siberian elms but I do have I think five in the other elm varieties (Cedar, Chinese). So far I've only killed one overwinter and I think that was user error anyway. I also love Malus! I started a thread on one of them. I've picked up 3 of them this season. There are some gorgeous crabs at the park nearby that I walk my dog in.
I have had good luck just setting a normal form "lacebark" Chinese elm on the ground. It has survived the last 5 winters that way. I got mine from Brussel's. But many have had trouble wintering Chinese elm in the Chicago area, so while "Plop or Drop" technique works for me, I have heard many have trouble. The Chinese elm cultivars 'Seiju' and 'Corticosa' do not survive my "Plop n Drop' technique. I found I have to winter them in my unheated well house.

Siberian elms are everywhere in the city, Ulmus pumila, and I found them pretty good so far for bonsai. Mine are still in Anderson flats. They form a nice rough bark relatively young (decade or so). They are "free" as they are a wildly invasive weed around the city. They do require full sun, sunrise to sunset sun, if one side of the tree gets shaded too long, it will drop branches on the shaded side of the tree, so rotate them often. Other than the need for full sun, they are super hardy, drought tolerant and decent, small leaf, twiggy elm.
I will have to keep an eye out for the elms. I have yet to find an "urban yamadori" around here. There is a maple down the street with some badly overgrown root suckers that I was thinking of just going and pruning if the city (?) won't (and attempting to propagate). Thanks for all the great local info!
 
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