Blue atlas cedar help

Darathynne

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Hi there, i am fairly new to bonsai and even newer to this site. A few months ago i got a grafted blue atlas cedar which was standing at about 4.5 feet tall. I recently trunk chopped it down to 20 inches. I was just wondering how long i should wait until i shape and clean up the rest of the branches/trunk as there is a lot of small branches that intersect and i am afraid to leave them in case they may cause inverse taper. Also looking for some suggestions on what to do with the very boring trunk shape and when would be the best time to wire. Any tips/suggestions would be much appreciated !
 

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WNC Bonsai

Omono
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At least a year. Remember you have a root system down below that developed with 4 1/2’ of tree and branches and needles above it. You’ve already stressed it so give it time to recover.
 

p_anova

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I agree. Judging by the size of the branches, you are in no real danger of reverse taper. Remember, they rarely back bud so I would keep all of the foliage until it is ready to style. If you do not see really strong growth next season, push it another year. Strength first then you can take the next step.
 

sorce

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Lot to learn from here, state of the tree here.

Welcome to Crazy!

State of the Tree Address.

See how you did a design chop, then design worries have you thinking about making more design moves to save from other design moves that were already made?

There is a superficial idea of "balance". Just kinda bullshit that maybe sounds good coming out the mouth of some tree hugging "artist" like me and that Wisconsin kid.

But this balance that is making every move one of both complete design and of complete horticulture all at once is not superficial, it's so important.

Before we cut, your chop for instance, we should consider that move as both extremely horticultural, and, if we're being completely honest (yes always) a rather "stumptual" design move as per paragraph one of this address, which clearly states that with 4 design Only moves, horticulture is flown directly out the window and set afire in the future of this tree.

Had we considered these moves before acting on them, with simple cause and effect, cause and effect reasoning, you would, because you HAVE already figured out the problem live in action, you would have found out the problem in though alone before putting us (morons on the internet) on the hook to answer this question you already know is effed....
wondering how long i should wait until i shape and clean up the rest of the branches/trunk
Which you'll be able to answer more accurately than us every day of the week, maybe just a few months of weeks further down the old "time" roadmap.

My question is.....and it's what every newb (and sadly not newb too) needs to seek the answer to....

What is it that turns this off in us? Our awareness to know we already solved the problem we just acted too fast and can't catch up.

Is it a disconnect between time and "horticulture", possibly amplified by our brains' almost constantly auto stimulated pleasure functions? Pressure Functions? Because I don't believe we had the capacity to deal with the stimulation of travelling at speeds faster than we could walk, let alone a device operating so much faster even than that. It is very full of pressure, and stresses.

"Time is Pretend"

"Balance" as the nerdy tree hugging hippie artist types rep cuz they know it's the ONE way......

Is to slowly address each one of these little cause and effects in much smaller pieces so that you could watch a time lapse of the entire 10 year creation and almost never see one move take place, because they are so subtle.

Changing the way a tree looks like this is the Ultimate in True Balance of Design AND Horticulture always at the same time, only in wee doses we never appreciate until the end.

That's gangster, NOT enjoying the Journey.

There are way better journeys to take for joy than bonsai.

People that think bonsai joy comes from the journey are folks who would ride off the back of a train letting his head bounce off tie after tie....IMO.

Do it perfect for decades and get your enjoyment for centuries in the end.
Aye, tuff to plant that tree timeline too, but that's the best thing about Bonsai IMO. It's completely unselfish nature when approached correctly. We should strive to be so connected young and old, as a community on Earth.

Sometimes somethings make this happen, a little extra crazy!

Ain't nobody "talking", we changing the world every day. Change it for the Good!

Sorce
 

Potawatomi13

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Time to ask for advice is BEFORE whacking off tree. Was intent to keep trunk as skinny as is today? Upper tree was needed to grow out and expand trunk. Growth will help expand graft area with trunk. Bigger size, developing bark, TIME will aid diminishing bad appearance of graft. Skinny tree will always have obvious glaring fault thereo_O.
 

Darathynne

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At least a year. Remember you have a root system down below that developed with 4 1/2’ of tree and branches and needles above it. You’ve already stressed it so give it time to recover.
Will do thank you
 

Darathynne

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Time to ask for advice is BEFORE whacking off tree. Was intent to keep trunk as skinny as is today? Upper tree was needed to grow out and expand trunk. Growth will help expand graft area with trunk. Bigger size, developing bark, TIME will aid diminishing bad appearance of graft. Skinny tree will always have obvious glaring fault thereo_O.
Yes i do realize that now i wish i found this site before i made that impulsive move. I had feared that by waiting for it to grow a few more years and then chopping the shock to the tree would possibly kill the tree or the wound would not heal properly
 

Darathynne

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I agree. Judging by the size of the branches, you are in no real danger of reverse taper. Remember, they rarely back bud so I would keep all of the foliage until it is ready to style. If you do not see really strong growth next season, push it another year. Strength first then you can take the next step.
Good to know thank you
 

Darathynne

Seedling
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Lot to learn from here, state of the tree here.

Welcome to Crazy!

State of the Tree Address.

See how you did a design chop, then design worries have you thinking about making more design moves to save from other design moves that were already made?

There is a superficial idea of "balance". Just kinda bullshit that maybe sounds good coming out the mouth of some tree hugging "artist" like me and that Wisconsin kid.

But this balance that is making every move one of both complete design and of complete horticulture all at once is not superficial, it's so important.

Before we cut, your chop for instance, we should consider that move as both extremely horticultural, and, if we're being completely honest (yes always) a rather "stumptual" design move as per paragraph one of this address, which clearly states that with 4 design Only moves, horticulture is flown directly out the window and set afire in the future of this tree.

Had we considered these moves before acting on them, with simple cause and effect, cause and effect reasoning, you would, because you HAVE already figured out the problem live in action, you would have found out the problem in though alone before putting us (morons on the internet) on the hook to answer this question you already know is effed....

Which you'll be able to answer more accurately than us every day of the week, maybe just a few months of weeks further down the old "time" roadmap.

My question is.....and it's what every newb (and sadly not newb too) needs to seek the answer to....

What is it that turns this off in us? Our awareness to know we already solved the problem we just acted too fast and can't catch up.

Is it a disconnect between time and "horticulture", possibly amplified by our brains' almost constantly auto stimulated pleasure functions? Pressure Functions? Because I don't believe we had the capacity to deal with the stimulation of travelling at speeds faster than we could walk, let alone a device operating so much faster even than that. It is very full of pressure, and stresses.

"Time is Pretend"

"Balance" as the nerdy tree hugging hippie artist types rep cuz they know it's the ONE way......

Is to slowly address each one of these little cause and effects in much smaller pieces so that you could watch a time lapse of the entire 10 year creation and almost never see one move take place, because they are so subtle.

Changing the way a tree looks like this is the Ultimate in True Balance of Design AND Horticulture always at the same time, only in wee doses we never appreciate until the end.

That's gangster, NOT enjoying the Journey.

There are way better journeys to take for joy than bonsai.

People that think bonsai joy comes from the journey are folks who would ride off the back of a train letting his head bounce off tie after tie....IMO.

Do it perfect for decades and get your enjoyment for centuries in the end.
Aye, tuff to plant that tree timeline too, but that's the best thing about Bonsai IMO. It's completely unselfish nature when approached correctly. We should strive to be so connected young and old, as a community on Earth.

Sometimes somethings make this happen, a little extra crazy!

Ain't nobody "talking", we changing the world every day. Change it for the Good!

Sorce
Thank you for your insight sorce a lot of knowledge packed into there i really appreciate it
 

Adair M

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There are two ways that Atlas Cedars are generally styled: Formal Uprights; and Cascades.

Cascades are created by taking the full 4 foot height you HAD, and are bent down using guy wires, heavy wire, and rebar levers. Too late for all that…

If you want a Formal Upright like this one:

B1BC1387-FC66-4CF6-8F2A-9DE83B717C3C.jpeg

The way it’s done is by planning to plant it in the ground for 20 years. Keep all the branches, but wire them out horizontal. Let the lowest branches grow out long, but keep the branches up higher trimmed back.

eventually, you WILL remove some excess branches, but having the long heavy branches at the base will help thicken the base.

Do not worry about the grafting scar, in 20 years time, it will have healed over.

During the 20 years it’s in the ground, you’ll have to take the wire off and rewire every couple years.

Have fun!
 

Adair M

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By the way, the bark of Atlas Cedar act much in the same way as Japanese White Pine. When young, the bark is smooth and grey. After 20, or maybe 30 years, it starts to crack and fissure, and then after another 10 to 15 years, it starts to develop a mature, rough appearance.

The tree I posted is just beginning to crack and fissure, so I estimate it’s age at about 30 years old.
 

nuttiest

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Is to slowly address each one of these little cause and effects in much smaller pieces so that you could watch a time lapse of the entire 10 year creation and almost never see one move take place, because they are so subtle.
Wow, never tried this, but it sounds so much better for the tree than what I am doing:)
 

Darathynne

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There are two ways that Atlas Cedars are generally styled: Formal Uprights; and Cascades.

Cascades are created by taking the full 4 foot height you HAD, and are bent down using guy wires, heavy wire, and rebar levers. Too late for all that…

If you want a Formal Upright like this one:

View attachment 450725

The way it’s done is by planning to plant it in the ground for 20 years. Keep all the branches, but wire them out horizontal. Let the lowest branches grow out long, but keep the branches up higher trimmed back.

eventually, you WILL remove some excess branches, but having the long heavy branches at the base will help thicken the base.

Do not worry about the grafting scar, in 20 years time, it will have healed over.

During the 20 years it’s in the ground, you’ll have to take the wire off and rewire every couple years.

Have fun!
Wow that tree is absolutely amazing that is exactly the design i would like for mine. Thank you so much for the advice. Do u think I should wait for next spring to plant in ground, and should i prune the roots every few years so its not as much of a shock to the tree when i finally plant it in a bonsai pot
 

Adair M

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You can plant it in the ground this fall. I suggest plant it in a raised bed with coarse soil using a lot of pumice and lava. Yes, It would not hurt to lift it out of the ground every few years, to balance the root system.

I did not grow my tree. Jim Gremel did. But the description I gave you is how he told me he did it. Except, he didn’t lift it until it was finished growing. Which meant after he dug it, it took a couple years for it to recover (like a collected yamadori). If you lift it every 3 to 5 years, it should transition easier. And if you use pumice and lava in your raised bed, that soil is more like bonsai soil. So again, it will be easier to get a good root system.
 

Adair M

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If you look carefully at my tree, you can see the stubs of removed branches. They’re still there after 10 years. These take a long time to heal. Be prepared for a long project!
 

Darathynne

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You can plant it in the ground this fall. I suggest plant it in a raised bed with coarse soil using a lot of pumice and lava. Yes, It would not hurt to lift it out of the ground every few years, to balance the root system.

I did not grow my tree. Jim Gremel did. But the description I gave you is how he told me he did it. Except, he didn’t lift it until it was finished growing. Which meant after he dug it, it took a couple years for it to recover (like a collected yamadori). If you lift it every 3 to 5 years, it should transition easier. And if you use pumice and lava in your raised bed, that soil is more like bonsai soil. So again, it will be easier to get a good root system.
Ok sounds good i will do that, thank you so much Adair you’ve been extremely helpful
 
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There are two ways that Atlas Cedars are generally styled: Formal Uprights; and Cascades.

Cascades are created by taking the full 4 foot height you HAD, and are bent down using guy wires, heavy wire, and rebar levers. Too late for all that…

If you want a Formal Upright like this one:

View attachment 450725

The way it’s done is by planning to plant it in the ground for 20 years. Keep all the branches, but wire them out horizontal. Let the lowest branches grow out long, but keep the branches up higher trimmed back.

eventually, you WILL remove some excess branches, but having the long heavy branches at the base will help thicken the base.

Do not worry about the grafting scar, in 20 years time, it will have healed over.

During the 20 years it’s in the ground, you’ll have to take the wire off and rewire every couple years.

Have fun!
I have purchased a BAC and it arrives March 12-15 of this year.
IMG_2407.jpeg
If I want my base width not quite as wide as your featured tree yet I am unable to plant and grow into the ground, would repotting into an Anderson Flat with organic soil be my optimal route for width and development?

Additionally, what was the maximum height accomplished of your cedar tree that was grown in ground for 20+ years?
 

August44

Omono
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I have purchased a BAC and it arrives March 12-15 of this year.
View attachment 525075
If I want my base width not quite as wide as your featured tree yet I am unable to plant and grow into the ground, would repotting into an Anderson Flat with organic soil be my optimal route for width and development?

Additionally, what was the maximum height accomplished of your cedar tree that was grown in ground for 20+ years?
Did they guarantee a tree with branching like that? I fell for this from other growers/nurseries and received nothing like the picture posted. I have also ask to see a picture of the one I would be buying or trying to explain exactly what I was looking for and that didn't work either. Hope you do better than I did.
 
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