Bonsai Pots - Explain

If I feel it sticking is bad?



So if it feels like pumice is bad?

@ShadyStump aye, sticking is bad.

I never licked a non-vitreous, or more accurately, a frost proof pot not meant to be vitreous, so I can't say one of them won't lick sticky like a non frost proof Terra Cotta, but I reckon those are few enough, like @NaoTK may be the only US Potter I know making them, that you'd rarely come across that confusion.

You could always put them through more scientifical processes before wintering them out, though I, well, I don't think I should have to say "don't boil antiques!".

Sorce
 
Use the most accurate scale you have and measure the weight of your pot when it is bone dry
soak it in a bucket of water for a day or two (ideally you would boil it like sorce said but this is close enough)
calculate the % increase from the original weight. If it is <3-4% you are probably frost proof enough
 
Is there any way to know this when checking out a pot? Or only "trial by fire" ?
I was told to lick the pot - underneath where there's no glaze. If your tongue 'sticks' the ceramic is low fired. If the tongue slips off the ceramic is stoneware or better. I guess that's an indication whether the ceramic takes in water??????
Maybe there's a more socially acceptable method? tap and listen to the tone? Apply water and watch to see if it beads or absorbs? Eventually you'll get a 'feel' for pots and ceramic quality but that only comes through experience.

Maybe some others have better ways of assessing vitrification of ceramics?
 
This pot licking keeps coming up. Gotta admit, I have never licked a pot. It is a confusing issue for non-potters and apparently potters as well. Granted, if you tongue sticks to the unglazed portion of a pot, it is much too absorbent to be durable, particularly for freeze and thaw cycles. But vitrification has nothing to do with a pot being low fire, mid fire or high fire. Vitrification is dependent upon the clay body itself. A low fire clay is intended to vitrify at cone 06, about 1800 F give or take. Mid-fire clays, as in stoneware and some newer porcelains is cone 6, a bit over 2000F, and hi fire 2300+ and more.
A low fire pot can be vitrified, but the pot is softer and low fire clays generally have a higher absorption rate, so they are less durable in freeze / thaw and all other ways as well. You can't simple fire a low fire clay higher to give it the qualities of a mid or hi fire clay as the clay body itself matures at a lower temperature than those. I have seen the results of this mishap in kilns I have rebuilt and kilns that were completely ruined when the low fire clay becomes molten and you are left with a big solidified glassy glob as a solidified puddle in your kiln.
Other than paint your own pottery studios, most studios will not allow low fire clays. Some have learned the hard way, and others by example. Many times some one would offer me some free low fire clay, but I will not allow it in my studio. It is not worth the risk.
Conversely, a clay body designed for high fire, cone 10 will not fully vitrify in a cone 6 firing. This is also likely to suffer in a freeze / thaw cycle, but at least it wont destroy the kiln.
With experience, one can tell the difference between low fire and mid or hi fire being as it is denser and heavier. Also there are visual indicators like color flashes which are usually apparent on reduction gas firings and wood firings which almost always fully matured hi fire.
 
I was told to lick the pot - underneath where there's no glaze. If your tongue 'sticks' the ceramic is low fired. If the tongue slips off the ceramic is stoneware or better. I guess that's an indication whether the ceramic takes in water??????
Maybe there's a more socially acceptable method? tap and listen to the tone? Apply water and watch to see if it beads or absorbs? Eventually you'll get a 'feel' for pots and ceramic quality but that only comes through experience.

Maybe some others have better ways of assessing vitrification of ceramics?
Still very much a beginner at all things pots, but the one I go with it flick the rim of the pot with your finger. A solid pot will give out a good ring. The higher the fire the more clear the tone, and the longer it will ring.
Low fired ceramics will have a more hollow sounding tone, while high fired from higher quality clay will ring like a bell. Take into account the pot dimensions and shape, because these can affect the sound like with the bodies of string instruments, but in that same vein, there should be a very clear, lasting tone that accompanies quality ceramics.
 
This pot licking keeps coming up. Gotta admit, I have never licked a pot. It is a confusing issue for non-potters and apparently potters as well. Granted, if you tongue sticks to the unglazed portion of a pot, it is much too absorbent to be durable, particularly for freeze and thaw cycles. But vitrification has nothing to do with a pot being low fire, mid fire or high fire. Vitrification is dependent upon the clay body itself. A low fire clay is intended to vitrify at cone 06, about 1800 F give or take. Mid-fire clays, as in stoneware and some newer porcelains is cone 6, a bit over 2000F, and hi fire 2300+ and more.
A low fire pot can be vitrified, but the pot is softer and low fire clays generally have a higher absorption rate, so they are less durable in freeze / thaw and all other ways as well. You can't simple fire a low fire clay higher to give it the qualities of a mid or hi fire clay as the clay body itself matures at a lower temperature than those. I have seen the results of this mishap in kilns I have rebuilt and kilns that were completely ruined when the low fire clay becomes molten and you are left with a big solidified glassy glob as a solidified puddle in your kiln.
Other than paint your own pottery studios, most studios will not allow low fire clays. Some have learned the hard way, and others by example. Many times some one would offer me some free low fire clay, but I will not allow it in my studio. It is not worth the risk.
Conversely, a clay body designed for high fire, cone 10 will not fully vitrify in a cone 6 firing. This is also likely to suffer in a freeze / thaw cycle, but at least it wont destroy the kiln.
With experience, one can tell the difference between low fire and mid or hi fire being as it is denser and heavier. Also there are visual indicators like color flashes which are usually apparent on reduction gas firings and wood firings which almost always fully matured hi fire.
Licking a pot is just plain gross and useless 😁 . The best way to be able to tell the difference is to actually see as many bonsai pots as you can IN PERSON. Simply picking a good one up one can typically tell if its high fired from the heft, glass-like finish--most high fired pots will "ring" if tapped on the side. Lower fired pots tend to "clunk" when tapped.

There are exceptions--like some higher end Chinese pots use an engobe--an overspray of liquid clay used as a finish for some pots. I've found that the oversprayed clay can be typically less durable in freezes than the underlying clay. That results in the coating popping off/spalling...
 
My bonsai pot addiction isn't all that tidy. Here are a few of the pots, others tucked away in storage rooms, other areas in the backyard, etc.
Fantastic Space!!!!

That displayed scroll and display case are AWESOME..

I had a japanese Katana and... um.. "Way out of humiliation".. taken from "Half a Japanese Serviceman" 😬, from my grandfather.. but my mother donated it to a WW2 collection.

The color (of that room is nice)... makes me feel inquisitive.. and kind of hungry.

🤓
 
Fantastic Space!!!!

That displayed scroll and display case are AWESOME..

I had a japanese Katana and... um.. "Way out of humiliation".. taken from "Half a Japanese Serviceman" 😬, from my grandfather.. but my mother donated it to a WW2 collection.

The color (of that room is nice)... makes me feel inquisitive.. and kind of hungry.

🤓
Thanks. Scroll is "showa era" Japanese--probably from the 80's. The display case is a mess. It catches all kinds of "stuff" The case itself is a family hand-me-down from my granddad. 1930's. It collapses flat, no nails used in construction.
 
The case itself is a family hand-me-down from my granddad. 1930's. It collapses flat, no nails used in construction.
You should get that thang to Antiques Roadshow! Just for an appraisal. They broadcast from Richmond, occasionally, I believe.(could be wrong)
;)

Next time you move it, or make it "flat", you should share some pictures.... VERY neat.
 
You should get that thang to Antiques Roadshow! Just for an appraisal. They broadcast from Richmond, occasionally, I believe.(could be wrong)
;)

Next time you move it, or make it "flat", you should share some pictures.... VERY neat.
Nah, Not worth all that much and these are not really rare. Prolly get $100-$500 (depending on the circumstances) at auction. Made by a Detroit-based Widman early 1900's....FWIW, Demand for "brown" (as in old brown unpainted wooden) furniture has plummeted as younger people don't want it or appreciate it. Don't think that's going to change anytime soon.
 
Nah, Not worth all that much and these are not really rare. Prolly get $100-$500 (depending on the circumstances) at auction. Made by a Detroit-based Widman early 1900's....FWIW, Demand for "brown" (as in old brown unpainted wooden) furniture has plummeted as younger people don't want it or appreciate it. Don't think that's going to change anytime soon.
Well.. that sucks for them, then.

I prefer natural to modern..

But not many of my generation seem to utilize it.

(I still want to see it flat! 😂)
 
@dbonsaiw - I did not go back to read to see where in NY you are located, but if you are ever in the Rochester area, you need to drop in on William Valavanis. Bill runs International Bonsai, he has a shop, publishes an on line magazine, and several books, teaches classes and is one of the serious masters of bonsai in the USA. He also sells pots, if you shop in person he could easily give you a short tutorial in recognizing the differences between a good pot and a poor pot.


ANd I highly recommend Matt Owinga. A call to him, or a brief email exchange with him, and purchase one or two good medium price pots, and you will have nice examples of good quality bonsai pots. He won't stick you with "cheap junk". Some of my best pots came from Matt Owinga.


Then buy one or two of the absolute cheapest, crappiest looking junk pots you can find on Ebay, definitely don't pay more than $10 for the pots. Shipping should be more than the cost of the pots. Compare this cheap crap to pots bought from Matt or Bill V. The difference will be striking.

Or just buy a Walmart juniper bonsai, that is $40 or less. The pot will be cheap production grade pot. Compare to a good one from Matt or Bill V.

Buying hand made USA made pots from any of the potters that are members here will also give you good contrast to compare. @sorce , @penumbra , @ABCarve , @Pitoon are 4 potters I can think of off the top of my head. Look at the sales forums for more. All 4 I listed make quality pots.
 
“You take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.” - Morpheus


This is where 2 decades plus of collecting pots might get you. I'll readily admit my introduction to bourbon right after moving to GA may have greased to tracks to purchase a fair number of the high end pots on display- try it, you'll like it! :D
... and these are just the empty pots...
View attachment 426444View attachment 426445View attachment 426446View attachment 426447
That pot always catches my attention.
 
That pot always catches my attention.
I think I know the one... Senshu? Someone with good eyes might choose a different pot in that first picture- Tofus, Yusen, Kouzans, antiques from China and Japan- so I'm not assuming anything;)
 
Thanks @Leo in N E Illinois , also, damn good call on realizing OP is from Rochester and not Texas like I've somehow convinced myself!

Perhaps @dbonsaiw , PM @coh and see if he'd make a day trip with ya! Pics for the "meeting nuts in person" thread! Bonus Points for selfies with Bill V though!

Sorce
 
Nah. Norman is a relative, but not that close-and his estate will sue you if you claim to be a close relation 😁
Wait....

....REALLY?

Am I thinking of the right Norman... like the MOST FAMOUS (non-military) american "Norman"?... died near 1980 (can't remember exact year) ?
:)
 
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