Boreal Forrest Idea

[Shogun610]

More added

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@Shogun610 - big project. At first I was going to dump cold water on choices of species, and scale of the whole plan. The different water and soil pH requirements of the species may pose a significant problem. Then I watched Nigel's video, and I have had a few thoughts to help.

If Nigel can pull off something that looks okay, then any idiot can do it. I don't think much of Nigel's bonsai technique. He has a lot of bad or just mediocre habits. His not wiring trees into pots makes me crazy. The potting soil texture of the media he uses. There is a long list of issues where I think Nigel uses poor technique. So if you want to learn bonsai, watch Bjorn Bjornholm or Ryan Neil or read Jonas Dupuich or Crataegus, Michael Hagedorn. Or take classes on line or in person from Boon. But don't adopt Nigel's less than ideal techniques.

The POT. I bought a pot for a forest a few years ago, 23 inches in length, it was $250. A Sara Rayner pot, which means not the cheapest, but she is one of the less expensive of the custom potters who turn out very nice work. The trees you are using have large leaves, beech and red maple leaves do not reduce the way hornbeam and elm reduce. You need a bigger pot. You are also planning different elevations. All this would be complicated to execute in clay. Kilns for pottery are either very small, when owned and run by one person. Only way to get big pieces fired is to have a potter who belongs to a group that fires one of the walk in size kilns. The price of your pot will be limiting.

One option would be to make your own concrete pot. Here you can cast a pot any size you need. I would think with the trees you are using you'd need a 36 inch pot or larger. As you cast the pot you can have elevated areas, you can make a formal "ceramic like" edges, or you can carve your edges to look like the work of Erik K. from somewhere in eastern Europe. Remember, concrete over about 6 inches in length will need some sort of internal armature, or wire mesh, or internal support system because the biggest issue with concrete is that is has no flexural strength. Picking up and moving your pot will cause flexing, and that is when it will break. Fiberglass mesh, wire mesh, and pieces of re-bar need to be worked into the design. If you go more massive, as in the giant concrete pots they make in Viet Nam or Indonesia, you actually can get away with less re-bar because massive (greater than 4 inches thick walls) do become stronger, resist flexing. But they move those around with fork lifts, so that might not be practical.

Another trick, is like Hagedorn does, look through his blog: Crataegus. He uses sheets of acrylic, cuts them to interesting free form shapes, then builds muck walls and does his plantings on them. You could make one giant free form sheet to do the whole planting as one. Or you can make it modular. Cut your large free form into 2 or 3 pieces. Muck walls, moss on the walls, grow them together as a single unit, and you will be able to break them apart for transport.

Hope the above ideas help solve the pot problem.

Another option is, the "art of display" solution. For example, a pine on a tall stand at the back of the display, represents the mountain, a low rimmed shallow pot with your carnivorous plants or your water reeds can represent the pond in the foreground. The third element can be a deciduous tree on a low stand, putting it above the "pond", but below the "mountain", and here is your deciduous forest. Done with 2 trees and a planting. In other words, you can get where you are going via abstract representation.

Seek out articles, photo blogs, instagram, etc. by Arthur Joura. Or better yet get over to the NC Arboretum in Asheville, NC to see his mixed forests in person. Arthur has made 6 or more now mature mixed forest plantings, and the Arboretum specifically collects bonsai forest plantings from other artists too. You will learn a lot, get there before you plant yours up if at all possible. Autumn might be a perfect time to get there.

Species choices for forests. Arthur gave a talk in Milwaukee some years back. He mentioned that in some of his Appalachian forest plantings he could not use the species he wanted to use. He found red maple, Acer rubrum, difficult to get the leaf sizes he needed and the shorter internodes he needed. So he uses Amur maple, Acer ginnala, and Trident maple as stand ins for red maple and or sugar maple. Hornbeam or elm as substitute for beech. Kuisianum Azalea to stand-in for Rhododendrons and Kalmia.

You really need to see his stuff, no reason to re-invent the wheel, Arthur has a lot to offer in terms of going down the road you are heading. He is easy to talk to, make a call before you head to the NC Arboretum, make an appointment to have a chat with him. Get there early enough to tour the collection a bit before your meet, then have him walk with you and talk. He is the curator for the NC Arboretum, so he is there 5 days a week.

Hope this helps.

 

[Shogun610]

@Shogun610 - big project. At first I was going to dump cold water on choices of species, and scale of the whole plan. The different water and soil pH requirements of the species may pose a significant problem. Then I watched Nigel's video, and I have had a few thoughts to help.

If Nigel can pull off something that looks okay, then any idiot can do it. I don't think much of Nigel's bonsai technique. He has a lot of bad or just mediocre habits. His not wiring trees into pots makes me crazy. The potting soil texture of the media he uses. There is a long list of issues where I think Nigel uses poor technique. So if you want to learn bonsai, watch Bjorn Bjornholm or Ryan Neil or read Jonas Dupuich or Crataegus, Michael Hagedorn. Or take classes on line or in person from Boon. But don't adopt Nigel's less than ideal techniques.

The POT. I bought a pot for a forest a few years ago, 23 inches in length, it was $250. A Sara Rayner pot, which means not the cheapest, but she is one of the less expensive of the custom potters who turn out very nice work. The trees you are using have large leaves, beech and red maple leaves do not reduce the way hornbeam and elm reduce. You need a bigger pot. You are also planning different elevations. All this would be complicated to execute in clay. Kilns for pottery are either very small, when owned and run by one person. Only way to get big pieces fired is to have a potter who belongs to a group that fires one of the walk in size kilns. The price of your pot will be limiting.

One option would be to make your own concrete pot. Here you can cast a pot any size you need. I would think with the trees you are using you'd need a 36 inch pot or larger. As you cast the pot you can have elevated areas, you can make a formal "ceramic like" edges, or you can carve your edges to look like the work of Erik K. from somewhere in eastern Europe. Remember, concrete over about 6 inches in length will need some sort of internal armature, or wire mesh, or internal support system because the biggest issue with concrete is that is has no flexural strength. Picking up and moving your pot will cause flexing, and that is when it will break. Fiberglass mesh, wire mesh, and pieces of re-bar need to be worked into the design. If you go more massive, as in the giant concrete pots they make in Viet Nam or Indonesia, you actually can get away with less re-bar because massive (greater than 4 inches thick walls) do become stronger, resist flexing. But they move those around with fork lifts, so that might not be practical.

Another trick, is like Hagedorn does, look through his blog: Crataegus. He uses sheets of acrylic, cuts them to interesting free form shapes, then builds muck walls and does his plantings on them. You could make one giant free form sheet to do the whole planting as one. Or you can make it modular. Cut your large free form into 2 or 3 pieces. Muck walls, moss on the walls, grow them together as a single unit, and you will be able to break them apart for transport.

Hope the above ideas help solve the pot problem.

Another option is, the "art of display" solution. For example, a pine on a tall stand at the back of the display, represents the mountain, a low rimmed shallow pot with your carnivorous plants or your water reeds can represent the pond in the foreground. The third element can be a deciduous tree on a low stand, putting it above the "pond", but below the "mountain", and here is your deciduous forest. Done with 2 trees and a planting. In other words, you can get where you are going via abstract representation.

Seek out articles, photo blogs, instagram, etc. by Arthur Joura. Or better yet get over to the NC Arboretum in Asheville, NC to see his mixed forests in person. Arthur has made 6 or more now mature mixed forest plantings, and the Arboretum specifically collects bonsai forest plantings from other artists too. You will learn a lot, get there before you plant yours up if at all possible. Autumn might be a perfect time to get there.

Species choices for forests. Arthur gave a talk in Milwaukee some years back. He mentioned that in some of his Appalachian forest plantings he could not use the species he wanted to use. He found red maple, Acer rubrum, difficult to get the leaf sizes he needed and the shorter internodes he needed. So he uses Amur maple, Acer ginnala, and Trident maple as stand ins for red maple and or sugar maple. Hornbeam or elm as substitute for beech. Kuisianum Azalea to stand-in for Rhododendrons and Kalmia.

You really need to see his stuff, no reason to re-invent the wheel, Arthur has a lot to offer in terms of going down the road you are heading. He is easy to talk to, make a call before you head to the NC Arboretum, make an appointment to have a chat with him. Get there early enough to tour the collection a bit before your meet, then have him walk with you and talk. He is the curator for the NC Arboretum, so he is there 5 days a week.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the tips… I watched Ryan Neils beech Forest idea with the lace rock that gave me inspiration. Good information on the American Hornbeam, but really wanted beech, perhaps I’ll use some hornbeam to add into mix , as I can easily get some. The acer rubrum will be a project , but I really really want to use native species.
totally agree with Nigels technique but it’s cool to see someone else try the big forest although the only aspect of the bog forest is the larch and spruce. I do apprentice at a professional studio , and have been talking through the project. The big aspect for separate needs is the muck-o walls separating soil needs, and pockets for akadama on the rock. I’ll check out the NC arboretum mixed forests.. Bonsai tonight and Bjorn are also favorites of mine .. spent a good chunk of time getting supplies and emailing Jonas on some other pine specimens collected out west.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Ah, you must be at Nature's Way. Jim Doyle used to come to Milwaukee, I've met him many times, and he does know his stuff, super nice guy and a better teacher than many of the "flashier" teachers on the circuit.

Sure, stick with native if you like. If you're going with beech and red maple, go larger. Taller trees, bigger pot for the forest. Seriously look at acrylic sheets instead of a pot, will make the whole thing lighter, easier to move.

 

[Shogun610]

Ah, you must be at Nature's Way. Jim Doyle used to come to Milwaukee, I've met him many times, and he does know his stuff, super nice guy and a better teacher than many of the "flashier" teachers on the circuit.

Sure, stick with native if you like. If you're going with beech and red maple, go larger. Taller trees, bigger pot for the forest. Seriously look at acrylic sheets instead of a pot, will make the whole thing lighter, easier to move.

I’m actually with Bob at Kifu.. but him and Jim first started with Chase Rosade before Bob went to Japan. Will do , I saw a mica forest planting sold by Wigerts. But I appreciate your feedback. Certainly worth looking into setting this idea up for proper success.

 

[Shogun610]

Ah, you must be at Nature's Way. Jim Doyle used to come to Milwaukee, I've met him many times, and he does know his stuff, super nice guy and a better teacher than many of the "flashier" teachers on the circuit.

Sure, stick with native if you like. If you're going with beech and red maple, go larger. Taller trees, bigger pot for the forest. Seriously look at acrylic sheets instead of a pot, will make the whole thing lighter, easier to move.

Forgot to add.. for the rock portion.. it will be secured , tied down and have rubber and wood to hold it up. The ceramic wont be elevated itself , I’m looking for Tufa or lace rock.

 

[Shogun610]

Found my rock

 

[Shogun610]

Kinda at a road block… can’t seem to find any upright American larches to use for forest planting, that would be like a focal tree… everything I’m seeing is angled and meant for individual planting. If I collect in the spring for larch I’m not too sure it would be a good idea to plant in the container right away after collection. I’ve seen bare root seedlings go into a forest pot so maybe I’ll have to try that.

 

[Shogun610]

Found two more American beech to use in the composition, I want to use the weird shaped one for a semi cascade off the rock. The taller Beech will be either my main tree or secondary and midline on the rock. The rock should be coming on the 14th. I found three white spruce to use which I’ll add to this once they arrive in mail. Will do some pruning this fall on my deciduous, along with some cleaning of the conifers for this, maybe some light wiring of the spruce when they arrive. Also switching out the single Alder I have for another river birch that will sit on the downward slope of the rock, or at the foot since it will like the run off of water that flows down the rock.

 

[penumbra]

I will be watching.

 

[Forsoothe!]

This monstrosity is going to be bigger than a breadbox. More like a box truck. Or, a boxcar?

 

[Shogun610]

Rock broke , so I was kinda pissed , the seller was gracious to send me another one similar size. But this might also be a silver lining moment , I would have probably needed another rock , and I can arrange these in individual positions. Waiting to get the other rock in the mail before I build the wooden forest container.

 

[ShadyStump]

So, growing up in Colorado, I always wondered what kinda of idiot would PAY for rocks.
Then the Coast Guard sent me to Virginia.
One day we drove around the back roads for HOURS looking for rocks to build a fire pit in the backyard.
THERE AIN'T A ROCK IN THE WHOLE FRIGGIN STATE!

I guess that whole thing is just me sayin, nice rock, dude.

 

[Shogun610]

Lmao yeah I just like the lace rock… there are certainly a lot of slate but it’s too brittle and not the look I’m going for …. But we’ll see maybe I’ll use multiple types .. I got a while to think it all through

So, growing up in Colorado, I always wondered what kinda of idiot would PAY for rocks.
Then the Coast Guard sent me to Virginia.
One day we drove around the back roads for HOURS looking for rocks to build a fire pit in the backyard.
THERE AIN'T A ROCK IN THE WHOLE FRIGGIN STATE!

I guess that whole thing is just me sayin, nice rock, dude.

 

[Shogun610]

@Shogun610 - big project. At first I was going to dump cold water on choices of species, and scale of the whole plan. The different water and soil pH requirements of the species may pose a significant problem. Then I watched Nigel's video, and I have had a few thoughts to help.

If Nigel can pull off something that looks okay, then any idiot can do it. I don't think much of Nigel's bonsai technique. He has a lot of bad or just mediocre habits. His not wiring trees into pots makes me crazy. The potting soil texture of the media he uses. There is a long list of issues where I think Nigel uses poor technique. So if you want to learn bonsai, watch Bjorn Bjornholm or Ryan Neil or read Jonas Dupuich or Crataegus, Michael Hagedorn. Or take classes on line or in person from Boon. But don't adopt Nigel's less than ideal techniques.

The POT. I bought a pot for a forest a few years ago, 23 inches in length, it was $250. A Sara Rayner pot, which means not the cheapest, but she is one of the less expensive of the custom potters who turn out very nice work. The trees you are using have large leaves, beech and red maple leaves do not reduce the way hornbeam and elm reduce. You need a bigger pot. You are also planning different elevations. All this would be complicated to execute in clay. Kilns for pottery are either very small, when owned and run by one person. Only way to get big pieces fired is to have a potter who belongs to a group that fires one of the walk in size kilns. The price of your pot will be limiting.

One option would be to make your own concrete pot. Here you can cast a pot any size you need. I would think with the trees you are using you'd need a 36 inch pot or larger. As you cast the pot you can have elevated areas, you can make a formal "ceramic like" edges, or you can carve your edges to look like the work of Erik K. from somewhere in eastern Europe. Remember, concrete over about 6 inches in length will need some sort of internal armature, or wire mesh, or internal support system because the biggest issue with concrete is that is has no flexural strength. Picking up and moving your pot will cause flexing, and that is when it will break. Fiberglass mesh, wire mesh, and pieces of re-bar need to be worked into the design. If you go more massive, as in the giant concrete pots they make in Viet Nam or Indonesia, you actually can get away with less re-bar because massive (greater than 4 inches thick walls) do become stronger, resist flexing. But they move those around with fork lifts, so that might not be practical.

Another trick, is like Hagedorn does, look through his blog: Crataegus. He uses sheets of acrylic, cuts them to interesting free form shapes, then builds muck walls and does his plantings on them. You could make one giant free form sheet to do the whole planting as one. Or you can make it modular. Cut your large free form into 2 or 3 pieces. Muck walls, moss on the walls, grow them together as a single unit, and you will be able to break them apart for transport.

Hope the above ideas help solve the pot problem.

Another option is, the "art of display" solution. For example, a pine on a tall stand at the back of the display, represents the mountain, a low rimmed shallow pot with your carnivorous plants or your water reeds can represent the pond in the foreground. The third element can be a deciduous tree on a low stand, putting it above the "pond", but below the "mountain", and here is your deciduous forest. Done with 2 trees and a planting. In other words, you can get where you are going via abstract representation.

Seek out articles, photo blogs, instagram, etc. by Arthur Joura. Or better yet get over to the NC Arboretum in Asheville, NC to see his mixed forests in person. Arthur has made 6 or more now mature mixed forest plantings, and the Arboretum specifically collects bonsai forest plantings from other artists too. You will learn a lot, get there before you plant yours up if at all possible. Autumn might be a perfect time to get there.

Species choices for forests. Arthur gave a talk in Milwaukee some years back. He mentioned that in some of his Appalachian forest plantings he could not use the species he wanted to use. He found red maple, Acer rubrum, difficult to get the leaf sizes he needed and the shorter internodes he needed. So he uses Amur maple, Acer ginnala, and Trident maple as stand ins for red maple and or sugar maple. Hornbeam or elm as substitute for beech. Kuisianum Azalea to stand-in for Rhododendrons and Kalmia.

You really need to see his stuff, no reason to re-invent the wheel, Arthur has a lot to offer in terms of going down the road you are heading. He is easy to talk to, make a call before you head to the NC Arboretum, make an appointment to have a chat with him. Get there early enough to tour the collection a bit before your meet, then have him walk with you and talk. He is the curator for the NC Arboretum, so he is there 5 days a week.

Hope this helps.

Have you ever worked with Swamp Azaelea (rhododendron viscosum) are these difficult to dwarf of keep small? Is that why you suggested the latter azaelea? Would like to incorporate this too bordering the big plants and the source/ larch ( one in the foreground other in the back ground so you can see between the larch / spruce clumps). Im reeeeally going into a deep rabbit hole trying to fill in understory /accents now. This bog forest idea is a burden I just compete (but the right way)

 

[Forsoothe!]

Rabbit hole entrance...

 

[Shogun610]

Here are the white spruce after cleaning up some small branches , and removing any more than 2 branches per whorl. Going to wire these up, some low branching but also in a way they appear in a bog, but also with some spruce aesthetics. I intend to have two spruce close together and a larch making up a group of three, with a separate spruce with 2 larch in another group of three in the background at the border of the bog grasses/ plants which will be bordered off below the surface . Barrier will be hidden by moss/ mountain moss dressings…They are already in bonsai soil in shallow pots. They were potted up spring 2020. When I repot these I will just be teasing out the roots once they are repotted. It’s a wooden forest box I’m going to make so it will still allow for root development. If not I will delay my Forest another year, depending how they respond to wiring.

 

[Shogun610]

One tree is done.just a rough wiring not every branch was wired.. just the basic silhouette while will slow for interior growth / wear areas . this will be the entrance to the forest past the little bog planting as the arm of the tree is extending to invite you in. The forest will start from right to left while being cognizant of the basic design principles from a distance.. I still want the viewer to think they are walking through it

 

[penumbra]

Then the Coast Guard sent me to Virginia.
One day we drove around the back roads for HOURS looking for rocks to build a fire pit in the backyard.
THERE AIN'T A ROCK IN THE WHOLE FRIGGIN STATE!

You are looking in the wrong places. I have geodes, crystal clusters, holey limestone, lots of jasper, hunks of kyanite, riolite, petrified wood, quartzite, blue quartz, gniess, unakite and much more all found in Virginia.

 

[Shogun610]

You are looking in the wrong places. I have geodes, crystal clusters, holey limestone, lots of jasper, hunks of kyanite, riolite, petrified wood, quartzite, blue quartz, gniess, unakite and much more all found in Virginia.

Shoot if I found holey limestone I could use that…. I got a another replacement for the broken rock.. lol…