Can I turn my pine into a proper bonsai?

[CatalanNewbie]

Hi everyone!
I am a newbie that some years ago planted some pine seeds and read a book about bonsais . I've been taking care of this pine (and 2 more) for these years. This one is a Pinus Pinea, the others are another Pinea and one Sylvestris.
After reading this book and surfing internet, I've been properly pruning the roots (don't worry for the picture showing the tree in a clay pot, a bit more than half of it is just stone, the proper substrate and roots height is around 4-5 inches). But I fear that looking for the trunk to thicken, I've left the tree to grow too much, and now I'm not sure that I can shape it into a bonsai.

I'm attaching some pictures, it's quite difficult to see the shape due to the many branches that the tree currently has, but I hope that some exp ert eyes can give me some counsel!

1. I think the trunk is too tall, but there are no short branches at around 2/3 of the top that I could use to replace the apex. My idea would be to cut the branches above 2/3 of the tree, and create a new apex by grafting. What do you think?
2. Even if the proposal is another, like bending the trunk to obtain other shapes that this tree can better adapt to, there are many branches that have only needles at the end. Do you think that it will be possible to force back-sprouting using the proper techniques (is this how's called? I'm not native English), or should I start preparing to do a lot of grafting...?

I imagine that some people will recommend to forget about it, but even if there's no solution, I still want to work and learn with this pine and the others... I planted them, and even if I buy other bonsais I will always keep them .

This is the front:



Left:

and Right:


Thanks for your comments and counsels!!

 

[gallina1594]

I'm no expert myself, I often have trouble envisioning a style for my own projects. If I were you, I'd try something like this, it might take a few chops to get there!

 

[gallina1594]

Also, something to remember about conifers, they will not survive it they are left with branches that do not have any foliage on them. Unlike (most)deciduous, who can survive being chopped to nothing but a nub!

 

[0soyoung]

Hi everyone!
I am a newbie that some years ago planted some pine seeds and read a book about bonsais . I've been taking care of this pine (and 2 more) for these years. This one is a Pinus Pinea, the others are another Pinea and one Sylvestris.
After reading this book and surfing internet, I've been properly pruning the roots (don't worry for the picture showing the tree in a clay pot, a bit more than half of it is just stone, the proper substrate and roots height is around 4-5 inches). But I fear that looking for the trunk to thicken, I've left the tree to grow too much, and now I'm not sure that I can shape it into a bonsai.

I'm attaching some pictures, it's quite difficult to see the shape due to the many branches that the tree currently has, but I hope that some exp ert eyes can give me some counsel!

1. I think the trunk is too tall, but there are no short branches at around 2/3 of the top that I could use to replace the apex. My idea would be to cut the branches above 2/3 of the tree, and create a new apex by grafting. What do you think?
2. Even if the proposal is another, like bending the trunk to obtain other shapes that this tree can better adapt to, there are many branches that have only needles at the end. Do you think that it will be possible to force back-sprouting using the proper techniques (is this how's called? I'm not native English), or should I start preparing to do a lot of grafting...?

I imagine that some people will recommend to forget about it, but even if there's no solution, I still want to work and learn with this pine and the others... I planted them, and even if I buy other bonsais I will always keep them .

Wow! I applaud your work, having grown this from seed.
We are of like mind, I too don't want to throw anything out. I see them all as a challenge that I must meet - develop my skills horticulturally and artistically.

Yes, the trunk is too tall, however, it was necessary to make it thick down near the nebari where your bonsai will eventually be found. The most frequent (almost mandatory) bonsai technique is to chop just above an existing branch and grow that to be the next trunk section. As long as that branch's tip is the highest one, it will wind up 'in charge' - all other branches will remain as branches and it will become the trunk. This process creates a trunk that zig-zags with taper - each section becomes progressively thinner, the higher up it is.

You can also try bending the trunk, if for no other reason than practice. I like the smooth curves that only bending can produce. However, I am sure you will ultimately will chop the trunk. Nevertheless, I would first try bending that trunk a see if I can make something interesting (which might change my thinking about where I would chop).

Grafting is a good idea! It is a valuable skill, so I think you should also try with this tree. You can first use foliage from the top of the tree as scions before you eventually chop the trunk. You want to do this when the tree isn't actively growing and when there will not be a hard freeze (i.e., temperatures below 24F/-4.5C). When actively growing, the bark will easily slip off the wood and/or resin will bleed from a cut. So, you could cut a scion from the top of the tree - if the stub does not 'bleed', you can make grafts. If it bleeds, put your scion in a plastic bag with some damp paper or sphagnum (orchid moss) into your refrigerator (you will be able to use it later) and test again after a few weeks.

That should be enough for the next year with this tree, I think

Show us your work

 

[GGB]

That's quite a start, I think you'll end up being very good at this art. 0soyoung has some great pine advice as do a few others around here. I'm interested to see what you do with this

 

[sorce]

Cheers! Lovely trunk!

Welcome to Crazy!

Sorce

 

[CatalanNewbie]

I'm no expert myself, I often have trouble envisioning a style for my own projects. If I were you, I'd try something like this, it might take a few chops to get there! View attachment 161442

Wow! That's quite a lot of chopping!Thanks for the idea, I've seen some bonsais in a similar shape, I will definitely take a look at this option!

 

[CatalanNewbie]

Wow! I applaud your work, having grown this from seed.
We are of like mind, I too don't want to throw anything out. I see them all as a challenge that I must meet - develop my skills horticulturally and artistically.

Yes, the trunk is too tall, however, it was necessary to make it thick down near the nebari where your bonsai will eventually be found. The most frequent (almost mandatory) bonsai technique is to chop just above an existing branch and grow that to be the next trunk section. As long as that branch's tip is the highest one, it will wind up 'in charge' - all other branches will remain as branches and it will become the trunk. This process creates a trunk that zig-zags with taper - each section becomes progressively thinner, the higher up it is.

You can also try bending the trunk, if for no other reason than practice. I like the smooth curves that only bending can produce. However, I am sure you will ultimately will chop the trunk. Nevertheless, I would first try bending that trunk a see if I can make something interesting (which might change my thinking about where I would chop).

Grafting is a good idea! It is a valuable skill, so I think you should also try with this tree. You can first use foliage from the top of the tree as scions before you eventually chop the trunk. You want to do this when the tree isn't actively growing and when there will not be a hard freeze (i.e., temperatures below 24F/-4.5C). When actively growing, the bark will easily slip off the wood and/or resin will bleed from a cut. So, you could cut a scion from the top of the tree - if the stub does not 'bleed', you can make grafts. If it bleeds, put your scion in a plastic bag with some damp paper or sphagnum (orchid moss) into your refrigerator (you will be able to use it later) and test again after a few weeks.

That should be enough for the next year with this tree, I think

Show us your work

Thanks!

Yes, I was not pruning a lot to let the trunk get thicker, but now I'm afraid of chopping or cutting too much . I assume that it happens to all newbies, I was also extremely scared the first times I was pruning the roots and repotting. I will think about the bending option. The trunk is not too thick in the base, just slightly above 1 inch diameter, I imagine I should be able to bend the upper part.

Regarding grafting, I did my first two yesterday, if you see the pictures there are two scions covered in plastic, let's see if they survive! The tree has some small sprouts in some branches, but it was not bleeding at all. Every year it happens that small sprouts appear end of summer but later they dry and die, I imagine it is normal...

Thanks again for the tips!!

 

[MichaelS]

The biggest problem here is the lack of pruning and pinching which has resulted in branches with no inner leaves. This is important with conifers because you can't cut back to bare wood to induce branching like you can with deciduous trees. This is the NUMBER ONE lesson to be learned here so you don't repeat it next time. As far as what to do now, completely forget about styling or any form of shaping right now. Forget wire, stakes, props etc. The wisest thing to do at this stage (in spring of course) is to remove all the long shoots down to the closest couple of branches to the trunk. The longer you leave them the worse the problem gets. However you need to be careful and not remove more than 50% of the entire foliage mass or you may weaken the tree excessively. There is absolutely no need to rush with any particular direction. (Haste makes waste!) That will reveal itself later. As for grafting, you can absolutely graft as many buds on as you can fit as that will speed up the process. Not sure where you are but if the weather is still mild there you can start grafting now. Make sure you do it well so you don't waste too many shoots.

PS I just noticed this was a P pinea. I have never seen a good bonsai made from this species. Not to say it can't be done...

 

[my nellie]

... ...This one is a Pinus Pinea, the others are another Pinea and one Sylvestris.

Are you sure this is the P. pinea?
Needles of pinea are a lot more longer than these on the photo.
Or is this foliage juvenile, I wonder.
Pinus pinea or stone Pine is also called umbrella Pine because of the shape the tree gets when mature. So, I would suggest that you make a search for images of the tree in nature and then you might decide about the form and style you would like to give to your tree.

The biggest problem here is the lack of pruning and pinching which has resulted in branches with no inner leaves. This is important with conifers because you can't cut back to bare wood to induce branching like you can with deciduous trees... ...

I'm glad you mentioned this, because this was my very first impression I got from the photos but I was kind of reluctant to post about it because I have no other experience with Pines than killing two or three of them...

 

[BigBen]

Nice trunk, hopefully you'll be able to make it work for you.

 

[CatalanNewbie]

The biggest problem here is the lack of pruning and pinching which has resulted in branches with no inner leaves. This is important with conifers because you can't cut back to bare wood to induce branching like you can with deciduous trees. This is the NUMBER ONE lesson to be learned here so you don't repeat it next time. As far as what to do now, completely forget about styling or any form of shaping right now. Forget wire, stakes, props etc. The wisest thing to do at this stage (in spring of course) is to remove all the long shoots down to the closest couple of branches to the trunk. The longer you leave them the worse the problem gets. However you need to be careful and not remove more than 50% of the entire foliage mass or you may weaken the tree excessively. There is absolutely no need to rush with any particular direction. (Haste makes waste!) That will reveal itself later. As for grafting, you can absolutely graft as many buds on as you can fit as that will speed up the process. Not sure where you are but if the weather is still mild there you can start grafting now. Make sure you do it well so you don't waste too many shoots.

PS I just noticed this was a P pinea. I have never seen a good bonsai made from this species. Not to say it can't be done...

I read much about what you explain, but I was obsessed in getting a trunk thick enough so I was always postponing pruning. I realised later that it was a bad idea... lesson learned!
Also, it happened every year that the inner sprouts dried and died even though I was pinching the candles. The only sprouts surviving a bit more were the outermost. This also helped getting this bad shape with no inner needles. The other Pinea I have is sprouting in different places now, but I fear it will happen as always, they have already stopped growing and then they will die. Where I live it never freezes and there are plenty of natural pinea trees around. Maybe they die because the tree can't maintain so many branches and leaves? Should I prune the branches aggressively if there are inner sprouts I want to keep? I'm also attaching below a couple of pictures:
This is the tree.


And the example of the sprouts, am I right that once they are just a bit more developed I can prune the branch and they will survive?


Thanks!

 

[CatalanNewbie]

Are you sure this is the P. pinea?
Needles of pinea are a lot more longer than these on the photo.
Or is this foliage juvenile, I wonder.
Pinus pinea or stone Pine is also called umbrella Pine because of the shape the tree gets when mature. So, I would suggest that you make a search for images of the tree in nature and then you might decide about the form and style you would like to give to your tree.

Is the juvenile foliage, there are some long needles at the top of the tree. I just wrote a reply in which I'm adding pictures of the other pinea, you can see there also long leaves. Or maybe I'm mistaken and I have 2 sylvestris and 1 pinea... ?

I live in Barcelona, many pinea trees around. You're right describing the shape they use to have, but it is not really attractive... Although if it's a Pinea I should try to shape it as a Pinea!

 

[petegreg]

P. pinea can produce 2-3 flushes of growth in one season. I think nothing is lost. Your tree has a nice trunk(line) with some timed pruning you can get some foliage closer to trunk.
They bud back very well on older wood too. Let it grow from spring to early summer. Then cut all new growth - shoots. In my climate I do this in Jun/July, in Spain you can do it a little bit earlier. Right time is when new shots stop extending... Then in few weeks you receive some buds close to the cuts and you can expect some buds everywhere. They will open and new shoots extend in summer. I've heard in your climate it's possible to do it twice in season.

 

[Paradox]

This tree looks very weak to me. It needs to get stronger and grow more foliage before you start doing work on it.

I would suggest feeding it heavily during the growing season.

 

[MichaelS]

I read much about what you explain, but I was obsessed in getting a trunk thick enough so I was always postponing pruning. I realised later that it was a bad idea... lesson learned!
Also, it happened every year that the inner sprouts dried and died even though I was pinching the candles. The only sprouts surviving a bit more were the outermost. This also helped getting this bad shape with no inner needles. The other Pinea I have is sprouting in different places now, but I fear it will happen as always, they have already stopped growing and then they will die. Where I live it never freezes and there are plenty of natural pinea trees around. Maybe they die because the tree can't maintain so many branches and leaves? Should I prune the branches aggressively if there are inner sprouts I want to keep? I'm also attaching below a couple of pictures:
This is the tree.
View attachment 161556

And the example of the sprouts, am I right that once they are just a bit more developed I can prune the branch and they will survive?
View attachment 161557

Thanks!

Yes the inner parts die because they are out muscled by the tips. This is standard and so we need to slow it or prevent it by cutting off the outer tips. As I have said before you can't strengthen weak shoots without weakening the strong ones. I suspect that you might be able to get dormant buds to sprout on pinea because it tends to do that but again be careful, go slowly and try a couple of branches before you do the whole thing. But most of all, concentrate on the scots pines. They are much better. In fact one of the best!
Just thought, I wonder if you grafted on mature buds from a mature tree (with adult needles) onto a young tree what would happen??? If you are in the Mediterranean, you should keep on the lookout for witches brooms on the pinea and try grafting those on??

 

[music~maker]

Yes the inner parts die because they are out muscled by the tips. This is standard and so we need to slow it or prevent it by cutting off the outer tips. As I have said before you can't strengthen weak shoots without weakening the strong ones. I suspect that you might be able to get dormant buds to sprout on pinea because it tends to do that but again be careful, go slowly and try a couple of branches before you do the whole thing. But most of all, concentrate on the scots pines. They are much better. In fact one of the best!
Just thought, I wonder if you grafted on mature buds from a mature tree (with adult needles) onto a young tree what would happen??? If you are in the Mediterranean, you should keep on the lookout for witches brooms on the pinea and try grafting those on??

@CatalanNewbie

To add to what MichaelS said:

For things that are known to back-bud, I've had very good luck with keeping things lightly constrained to a canopy and letting them slowly scale up each season. Basically, let it grow strongly, and occasionally keep the most dominant branches in check. I don't have a lot of data points on pine, but I have done this a lot with junipers, deciduous trees, broadleaf evergreens, ficus, etc. It seems to be a pretty universal technique on everything I've tried.

Shorten the dominant branches when they start to get out of hand, but mostly let things just slowly scale up each year. If it's going to back-bud, lightly constrained growth will likely trigger it. If it's not, well, it probably wasn't going to happen anyway, and you just keep going from there.

By allowing for stronger growth, you're keeping the tree nice and healthy, and by judiciously pruning, you're directing where that energy goes. Be patient with it. Something require 2-3 seasons to back-bud. Junipers, for example, can be really slow sometimes.

You've done a great job so far - most people growing from seed don't end up with something this nice on their first go around. Your worst case scenario here really is to just keep doing what you're doing and then eventually select the lowest viable new leader and re-grow the whole thing from there, and then just scale it up to a sufficient size where the scale works. But I think you were probably right to focus on the trunk first, especially for a first effort. When you're starting out, seeing how a tree trunks up is arguably more useful than getting the ramification perfect, and it takes forever if you over-prune. This is actually better than a lot of nursery stock that I see as far as future possibilities go, so I think you'll be fine.

 

[CatalanNewbie]

Just thought, I wonder if you grafted on mature buds from a mature tree (with adult needles) onto a young tree what would happen??? If you are in the Mediterranean, you should keep on the lookout for witches brooms on the pinea and try grafting those on??

Wouldn't this infect the bonsai with the phytoplasm causing them? Do you think that the disease would help keeping a small size in needles, etc...?
I could try that with the first pine... first I'll see if the two scions I grafted survive (is the first time I do grafting). Then maybe for the next year I could try it if I find a witch broom (and I can easily reach it )

 

[my nellie]

This is irrelevant to the original post and I do apologize for the distraction, but I would really desire to wish you the best of luck with all the serious problems arisen recently in your country.

 

[M. Frary]

witches brooms on the pinea and try grafting those on??

I have a couple Scots pine that try to grow them. I cut them off.