Collecting Trees from Nature for Bonsai

[Anonymous User]

Attila,

Are you then stating that to be successful as art, a bonsai must resemble a tree as it would be found in nature? Am I reading your words correctly in that you believe that unless a bonsai mimics trees in nature, it is not bonsai and as such can not be artistic bonsai?

Is there really no room for surrealism in bonsai? Imagine the tree below in a pot, living, perhaps a defoliated decidious tree.....nothing like it in nature, would you consider it bonsai?

Image hotlinked from http://www.gypsygirlsguide.com/2007/09/burning_man_pictures_in_my_min.html


Possible?

Image hotlinked from http://artsed.pbworks.com/Arts-Ed-and-Technology


Maybe we just need a little Analytical Cubism in bonsai, breaking down the tree to its base form. Certainly we can not practice cubism to the point of killing a tree, but isn't it possible to say "tree" without copying one?

Braque's "Houses at L'Estaque"
Image hotlinked from http://www.arthistoryarchive.com


Perhaps abstract design? Mondrian's "Grey Tree" below illustrates his passion for stripping away nonessential detail in a tree, can we not do the same?

Image hotlinked from http://artid.com/members/art_in_his...e-urge-to-abstraction?SES=0856efc15b1276eece6


Maybe we just need to rethink presentation?

Image hotlinked from http://www.designflavr.com/tags/tree/



The point still being that we do not necessarily need to be bound by only how a tree naturally appears in nature.....




WIlll

 

[catfish chapstick]

In abstract art we can ignore the laws of gravity.
How would a bonsai look, if the laws of gravity were ignored?

consider the future. bonsai in space.

when it comes to depicting things like gravity or wind or heavy snowfall or whatever, those are all "nature" devices used thoughtfully and artisticly to give the bonsai a story. consider a norman rockwell painting; its natural enough, artistic, tells a believable story etc. that is the poppular aim in bonsai. the story adds depth. a little depth goes a long way. its not as easy to do, i'm sure, but i have see bonsai that don't look like real trees, that i still find appealing. consider Masahiko Kimura.

 

[catfish chapstick]

"The point still being that we do not necessarily need to be bound by only how a tree naturally appears in nature....."


i thought that was al's point all along (?)

 

[Anonymous User]

i thought that was al's point all along (?)

Who knows, two threads and pages later he still has not answered the simple question I asked him, "All the inconsistencies aside, what exactly are you trying to say Al? Are you saying that trees should be based solely on how they grow in nature or are you saying they need artistic representation and as such, nature need not be observed?"

One of the best posts I have seen on this subject was by chappy here http://bonsainut.com/forums/showpost.php?p=41844&postcount=22




Will

 

[Attila Soos]

Attila,

Are you then stating that to be successful as art, a bonsai must resemble a tree as it would be found in nature? Am I reading your words correctly in that you believe that unless a bonsai mimics trees in nature, it is not bonsai and as such can not be artistic bonsai?

No, I am not saying that at all. In fact, I am a big believer that bonsai as an art form will eventually expand into new forms. It's just a matter of time.

What I am saying is that bonsai will always be firmly rooted in nature and natural forms, and that is always the starting point. Just like the master painter who learns the craft from the basics, a good bonsai artist needs to have a deep knowledge of the morphology of trees and the effect of the environment on their growth.

Is there really no room for surrealism in bonsai? Imagine the tree below in a pot, living, perhaps a defoliated decidious tree.....nothing like it in nature, would you consider it bonsai?

Surrealist bonsai is great. But one needs to understand that every great piece of art starts with the reality of our world, and then uses artistic means to reflect that reality through the eye of the artist. The point being, if one doesn't understand reality (in our case, reality means: trees), there is nothing to reflect upon, and the message of the artist will sound hollow.

The point still being that we do not necessarily need to be bound by only how a tree naturally appears in nature.....

We don't need to be bound. But when we break those boundaries, we must be well aware of what boundaries did we break, and then the subject of our finished work of art will tell us why did we break them. Which means that we need to understand how trees work, in the first place. And artist who is ignorant and doesn't understand this, will be a mere curiosity, and not much more, in the world of bonsai. You can create decorative pieces that housewives would love to place on their windowsills because they look pretty. But they will be strangers to the spirit of bonsai, as we know it. Remember, wabi, sabi, shibui..? I am using these foreign words for the sake of briefness, but this is why most of us got involved in bonsai, in the first place. A cubist bonsai may express the same feelings, but the artist must understand where this all came from: nature and the feelings that nature evokes in us. One cannot make up these feelings from a void.

 

[Attila Soos]

And, when talking about bonsai as modern art, there is another thing that many forget:

Most of us got into bonsai precisely because we love nature and we love trees in nature. If an ancient oak or an ancient redwood did not evoke a sense of awe and admiration in me, I would not be doing bonsai today. It is no coincidence that time and time again, people post pictures of the ancient bristlecone pines on these forums, and bonsaist who visit us from Asia will go out of their way to visit these sacred sites (sacred to us, bonsaists).

So, in the spirit of our admiration of nature, we have little or no inclination to create these modern works of art, where trees don't look like trees. I have no interest in doing that. If I had, I would be a painter or sculptor. Why would I bother with bonsai, which is a very clumsy and impractical medium for this purpose? Never mind the endless chore of maintaining this work of art, or else it will quickly disappear in a formless bush in the mids of the growing season.

My interest is the same as it was when I became infatuated and inspired by bonsai: to create trees inspired by nature. How many of us have a different goal? Why would I create a work that shows a tree in the shape of a corkscrew, or a tree with an upside-down crown, just for the sake of art? How many of us bonsaists are really interested in that,and then debate "don't you see, it is art"?
Is it possible? Yes.
Is it something we are interested in doing? No.


The examples you showed us are great, I like them.

But the tree in the shape of a head would translate into a topiary, if done as bonsai. I've seen that done, and....no, thank you.

As a bonsai, Mondrian's Grey tree would translate into a shapless bush, impossible to maintain in the long term.

Breaking down a tree into it's basic forms... I've seen that on this forum.... done inadvertently, in an attempt to create bonsai. Trunks, foliage pads shaped into geometric forms, looking disconnected from each other. The result looking horrific, most of the time. No, thanks.

I know that these are just examples, and there must be some good ones, but I am happy to take a look at them.

Bring them on, I am sure that it will be fun.

 

[catfish chapstick]

And, when talking about bonsai as modern art, there is another thing that many forget:

Most of us got into bonsai precisely because we love nature and we love trees in nature. If an ancient oak or an ancient redwood did not evoke a sense of awe and admiration in me, I would not be doing bonsai today. It is no coincidence that time and time again, people post pictures of the ancient bristlecone pines on these forums, and bonsaist who visit us from Asia will go out of their way to visit these sacred sites (sacred to us, bonsaists).

So, in the spirit of our admiration of nature, we have little or no inclination to create these modern works of art, where trees don't look like trees. I have no interest in doing that. If I had, I would be a painter or sculptor. Why would I bother with bonsai, which is a very clumsy and impractical medium for this purpose? Never mind the endless chore of maintaining this work of art, or else it will quickly disappear in a formless bush in the mids of the growing season.

My interest is the same as it was when I became infatuated and inspired by bonsai: to create trees inspired by nature. How many of us have a different goal?

personally, i was drawn to bonsai because of a love for nature and trees. i have always been interested in art as well (painting, sculpture, drawing, conceptual, etc) because my intrinsic desire to create. create+tree=bonsai. in an art sense there should be no boundaries however i still believe in the sanctity of nature. thats just my take on things. it should be a personal journey for anyone.

 

[Attila Soos]

personally, i was drawn to bonsai because of a love for nature and trees. i have always been interested in art as well (painting, sculpture, drawing, conceptual, etc) because my intrinsic desire to create. create+tree=bonsai. in an art sense there should be no boundaries however i still believe in the sanctity of nature. thats just my take on things. it should be a personal journey for anyone.

Believe me, I was drawn for exactly the same reason: love nature and have always loved the arts. My thirst for experiencing all art forms has no limits. And I have a desire to translate this love into creating. So, this must be a common theme amongst all of us.

And the longer you practice bonsai, the more you realize that bonsai is a very, very unique art form, that cannot be translated into anything else. This is not a resignation, but an important discovery. And it is a liberating one, because at some point you need to find your world and start living it.

 

[Attila Soos]

Has anyone wondered why bonsai changed so little in the last 2000 years? Yes, the wire was discovered. Huge deal!
And the forms went through some changes... more manicured, more deadwood, lime sulphur,super thrive..Ichi ban, whatever.

But take a bonsai that was created 2000 years ago, and one could make it into a contemporary-looking one in no time.

May be, just may be, the reason for the no change is that bonsai is so firmly grounded in a set of basic principles behind it. Very simple, primordial, require little technology. And these principles are timeless. They will exist as long as human will exist. No change is really necessary, in order for us to enjoy it, in its purest form. Just like planting a flower, placing on a table, and contemplating on it from a chair. Very simple and basic human activity. Talking about it is much more complicated than actually doing it.

 

[Anonymous User]

No, I am not saying that at all. In fact, I am a big believer that bonsai as an art form will eventually expand into new forms. It's just a matter of time.

We are in agreement....

Why would I create a work that shows a tree in the shape of a corkscrew, or a tree with an upside-down crown, just for the sake of art? How many of us bonsaists are really interested in that,and then debate "don't you see, it is art"?
Is it possible? Yes.
Is it something we are interested in doing? No.

You paint with a broad brush, Attila. There are many fine artists who paint in a naturalist style and who would never consider any other way, this does not invalidate those who paint the same subjects in a surrealistic, impressionistic, or even abstract style. There is room in bonsai for all styles of expression, if we could just get away from the mindset that a bonsai must not only look like a tree, but also one that can be found in nature.

You brought up gravity before, what would a tree look like in a low gravity environment? Perhaps long, skinny trunks and huge, flat foliage pads on branches that curved and twisted without much thickness? How about in a high gravity environment? Perhaps just like the sumo bonsai that have become somewhat popular of late?

Can the tree form be left behind totally? Will there someday be a bonsai equivalent of Malevich's Black Square? The Taiwanese are doing some different things with bonsai, but most are quick to label these efforts as topiary and dismiss them, why? Topiary today is commonly created using a wire frame on which plants are trained, the Taiwanese bonsai do not have wire frames and are trained just as our bonsai are, the only difference is the form.

I Gede Mertha has shown us some amazing living sculpture that certainly qualifies as a plant in a container and which does not resemble a tree at all, see below:

Photo hotlinked from his gallery at http://artofbonsai.org/galleries/gede_mertha.php

More examples as time permits.

 

[Attila Soos]

Yes, bonsai can take many unexpected forms.

I'm not saying we can't do it. I'm just saying, how many of us really want that weird stuff? I don't want to speak for all of us, but I suspect that many of us are doing bonsai for the magic that it brings.

Let me describe the magic:

Tha magic is..... (drumrolll)........ creating a piece of nature on a tabletop. A piece of nature that not only suggest nature, but also acts like nature. A tree grows, flowers, bears fruit, fall color, then the winter comes and it loses its leaves. It's incredible. It's magic. You can almost hold it in the palm of your hand. Almost hear the birds sing, or the wind blowing through a serene mountain scene. You know what I mean?


How many of those avangarde pieces have the same magic? They may be interesting. They may be creative, inventive? But where is the magic of having some awsome nature on your coffe table?

I may be wrong, but the way I see it: No Magic, No Bonsai. It's not the creativeness or the art that counts. It's having a living and breating piece of nature in the palm of your hand. That's to me the lasting legacy of bonsai. Just look at Saburo Kato's forest creations. It can't and won't get better than that. I've never seen it in my lifetime getting better than that.

As to enjoying modern art, I do that sometimes: I go to the museum, spend an hour, and I'm done. See ya next year, Jackson Pollock! (But not a day sooner. )

PS.: If I was a modern art fanatic, it would be a different story. But then I wouldn't waste my time with bonsai, would I? There is only so many things a man can do.

 

[Attila Soos]

You guys will have to move on without me, I'm staying with my foot permanently planted in Japan, it is and will always will be what true bonsai is to me. I will watch from the sidelines and see what you come up with, but please do it with D trees and leave conifers and junipers alone, their current form could hardly be improved on, change for the sake of change without improvement on an ancient hobby doesn't do that hobby any justice.

keep it green,
Harry

I don't blame you Harry. If it ain't broke, no need to fix it, right?

 

[Anonymous User]

Yes, bonsai can take many unexpected forms.

I'm not saying we can't do it. I'm just saying, how many of us really want that weird stuff? I don't want to speak for all of us, but I suspect that many of us are doing bonsai for the magic that it brings.

Let me describe the magic:

Tha magic is..... (drumrolll)........ creating a piece of nature on a tabletop. A piece of nature that not only suggest nature, but also acts like nature. A tree grows, flowers, bears fruit, fall color, then the winter comes and it loses its leaves. It's incredible. It's magic. You can almost hold it in the palm of your hand. Almost hear the birds sing, or the wind blowing through a serene mountain scene. You know what I mean?

Yes, there is magic in watching a tree grow, in miniature or not, such is nature. A walk through the woods can be a mystical experience, filled with the magic of nature. I don't argue this point, but you must admit it is a different subject than art in bonsai.

How many of those avangarde pieces have the same magic? They may be interesting. They may be creative, inventive? But where is the magic of having some awsome nature on your coffe table?

You guys will have to move on without me, I'm staying with my foot permanently planted in Japan, it is and always will be what true bonsai is to me. I will watch from the sidelines and see what you come up with, but please do it with D trees and leave conifers and junipers alone, their current form could hardly be improved on, change for the sake of change without improvement on an ancient hobby doesn't do that hobby any justice.

One word in response to both of your words above, Kimura.


Colin Lewis recently posted on AoB concerning this matter somewhat:

"Even the most un-tree-like bonsai images, such as highly stylized driftwood junipers, that follow no natural or non-bonsai patterns, can still be validly judged by non-bonsai people on their success in communicating something of what was in the artist's soul when the work was created. A bus driver, accountant, soldier or horse jockey with no prior contact with bonsai, can judge the artistic success of such a bonsai, albeit probably subconsciously. They can receive the message communicated by the artist, and the stronger and more empathetic this message is communicated, the more successful the artist's work. And this success is amplified when the bus driver, accountant, soldier and jockey all agree....

... which is something the bonsai cogniscienti seldom seem to do" - Colin Lewis http://artofbonsai.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=3864&start=15


This mirrors what some, including myself, have claimed in the past, it may be that the people in bonsai are the very ones responsible for holding it back. Don't take me wrong, there certainly is room for traditionalism, but isn't there also room for other philosophies?

 

[cquinn]

No, I am not saying that at all. In fact, I am a big believer that bonsai as an art form will eventually expand into new forms. It's just a matter of time.

You guys will have to move on without me, I'm staying with my foot permanently planted in Japan, it is and always will be what true bonsai is to me. I will watch from the sidelines and see what you come up with, but please do it with D trees and leave conifers and junipers alone, their current form could hardly be improved on, change for the sake of change without improvement on an ancient hobby doesn't do that hobby any justice.

keep it green,
Harry

Amen Brother!

 

[Attila Soos]

One word in response to both of your words above, Kimura.

I am glad you've brought up Kimura.
He is a perfect example of an artist, who is firmly grounded in his knowledge of trees and nature (as you know, he has many trees, in fact most of them, designed in more traditional forms), and is using his knowledge to elevate bonsai into more abstract forms.
I don't see his more abstract works as removed from nature at all. Rather, I see them as magnifying, or exagerating certain features in a tree. Features that we admire, he designs the whole tree around them, and makes them look larger than life.

 

[Anonymous User]

I don't see his more abstract works as removed from nature at all. Rather, I see them as magnifying, or exaggerating certain features in a tree. Features that we admire, he designs the whole tree around them, and makes them look larger than life.

Isn't abstract art, impressionism, surrealism, cubism, and the like just exaggerating features of the subject in a sense? The truth is that most of his creations could never be found in nature, he has left behind merely mimicking a tree in nature and has entered a more abstract world. He is no longer bound by what can occur naturally and he can let imagination take over. It does not matter if he created natural trees before or not, any more than it matters that Picasso created traditional landscapes, it is the piece in front of you, the art that matters. Do you look at "Starry Night" and think of what was painted 3 or 4 dozen paintings before it? No, the picture, the image presented is what is judged. Do you think, too bad the night sky doesn't look like a real night sky, the constellations are wrong, the color is off, that could never happen in nature? I hope not and neither should we think such things in bonsai, instead we need to forget what we think or pretend to know and see the image presented and judge it on its own, not against trees in nature, bonsai are not trees in nature, they never will be, some may mimic such, but they are bonsai and bonsai, like it or not, is an art form.


Will

 

[Smoke]

"The point still being that we do not necessarily need to be bound by only how a tree naturally appears in nature....."


i thought that was al's point all along (?)

It was...This was post 24 in another thread that sparked this one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chappy56
If Bonsai is an "artistic representation of a tree" then why do we have such a hard time accepting what one Bonsai artist represents? And why is it we so readily accept paintings of the same subject matter with little regard to how "accurate" they really are?

Originally posted by Smoke

1. because bonsai appreciatation is subjective

2. artistic representation is abstract

I think this follows what Attila just said.

 

[Redwing]

All you have accomplished in bonsai is writing a few checks, my eight year old daughter could do that, big deal, and she most likely has better penmanship to boot.

This ticks me off, Will, primarily because it is so totally backward from the things you claim to advocate.

Nothing will advance the art in the US as fast as the presence of enthusiastic, financially-able collectors who can and do create a market for high-end material and expert artists' care.

-rw

 

[Smoke]

Okay Bozo, show me one place, ever, where I ever claimed to be anything but at a beginner level in bonsai. Please for once, prove your words.

All you have accomplished in bonsai is writing a few checks, my eight year old daughter could do that, big deal, and she most likely has better penmanship to boot.

I'll match my actual contributions to the bonsai community against yours any day, you keep writing the checks, I'll keep making sure that the checks you write get larger every year.


Will

Hey Harry if you take this on..just make sure the picture and the name match up, I wouldn't want you taking on the the wrong guy.

I'll match my actual contributions to the bonsai community against yours any day, you keep writing the checks, I'll keep making sure that the checks you write get larger every year.

How do you intend on doing this?

With this narcissistic attitude of yours that photo has got to be eating you alive. What did you do run the manuscript thru spellcheck and call yourself an editor. You obviously had no control over placement or say so over important issues like photo's.

My wife has been a professional editor for almost 18 years now. If what happened to you happened on her watch, heads would roll. She would probably lose her job since she works in probably the most egotistical genre on earth. The music business.

What happened to you is akin to Diamond Dave introducing the band and saying: "On lead guitar, Lenny Van Huewlin. You can blame it on Robert here and some may believe you, but for all those that could care less about internet forums and do not know who you are, this is a glaring mistake for the guy who's name is on the cover. I totally believe you had nothing to do with it. If you would have had controll you can bet your bottom dollar your name and your picture would have been the rightest thing in the book. That you can take to the bank.


You didn't need another boo boo to add to your resume. The boo boo list is getting nearly as long as the contribution list. The boo boo list holds more weight though.

 

[Vance Wood]

I don't know why these things have to end up in exchanges in personal destruction, they just seem to. As far as bonsai is concerned what you do, how you do it and how it is perceived by your peers is of little importance. It seems to me that the bonsai form can be extremely refined, sculptured and tweaked to the point of being almost artificial. But; it will still be recognized as a tree and easily identifiable as a bonsai. A tree may also be grown in such a manner that it may look like a tree growing across the street in a neighbors yard, or growing in a park with swings and things, or growing on the side of a mountain. It still looks like a tree, some my recognize it as a bonsai and some my think it only a tree in a pot. Either way, it still looks like a tree and qualifies as a bonsai.

When we start applying the same history to bonsai that the graphic arts have gone through we start making things with trees (as opposed to making things about trees) that do not represent trees, though they my be exceedingly artistic as in Topiary, they may be grown in pots but most would not identify them as bonsai and it would require a good deal of arguing and discussing just what a bonsai is to make the assertion.

So---it seems that we are forced into a niche where the art defines itself. Bonsai is about capturing a tree, its form and it's environment in a pot. If the end result does not somehow reflect this story you will have a difficult time defining it as a bonsai. In short a bonsai must capture a slice of nature. It does not necessarily have to be refined but it does have to be believable.