Cutting of Wisteria

[ConorDash]

Hello,

Beginner at Bonsai here.
There is a large wisteria in my neighbours garden and I thought an idea would be to make a cutting from it to turn in to Bonsai.
I am going to and have started doing a bit of research on this. I need to see if it will be a hardwood cutting or not (hopefully the thicker cutting I can get, the better).
I would like any advice you guys have, words of wisdom on going about this?

Any recommended compost mix to put it in, or good general all purpose mix for new saplings or cuttings (once established of course, I would repot to a mix more specifically suited to the species).

Any words of advice appreciated .

 

[CWTurner]

Well, a cutting is going to be a little slip of a plant for years to come. If the neighbor is amenable, see if they'll let you air layer a larger branch with some character.
Wisteria is not an ideal bonsai because of its compound leaf, but it is grown, mostly for the flower display.
CW

 

[armetisius]

Conor, you can go that route or you can select an interesting branch
trim and train it roughly this season and air layer it off next year.
Should give you a leg up on a good starter. That is if you are fortunate
that enough to have a friendly/curious neighbor.

 

[ConorDash]

Well, a cutting is going to be a little slip of a plant for years to come. If the neighbor is amenable, see if they'll let you air layer a larger branch with some character.
Wisteria is not an ideal bonsai because of its compound leaf, but it is grown, mostly for the flower display.
CW

Well I'm rather inexperience and never done any of it before so I wouldn't mind giving any of it a go.
So if it were a hardwood cutting (as I hope to get a rather thick one, if I can, give it a better chance later and more impressive potentially) then I would have to air layer it, that makes sense...
Do you recommend the typical technique of cutting away bark and cambium then cling film type wrap around, hormone on the opening and sphagnum moss till ready to be cut? Thanks for the advice.

Conor, you can go that route or you can select an interesting branch
trim and train it roughly this season and air layer it off next year.
Should give you a leg up on a good starter. That is if you are fortunate
that enough to have a friendly/curious neighbor.

That's an interesting way.. The neighbour is fine to give me whatever I like, very good people. Thing is, they are also moving house soon so I was gonna try and get it from them because the new neighbours might not as happy to do it! Lol. Do you think this method is a big advantage over a typical airlayering?
Thanks for your advice.

 

[ConorDash]

And any recommended compost mix to pot them in? Although with the layering, it'll be some good time before I will be potting them.

 

[CWTurner]

I dont have much experience with cuttings, so no advice there. New owners may want the entire bush gone. Start an air layer asap(yes the procedure you posted is fine).
If the new owners DO want the bush your air layer can be considered a "crop" whose ownership reverts to the planter. Least thats what I learned in real estate school
CW

 

[ConorDash]

I dont have much experience with cuttings, so no advice there. New owners may want the entire bush gone. Start an air layer asap(yes the procedure you posted is fine).
If the new owners DO want the bush your air layer can be considered a "crop" whose ownership reverts to the planter. Least thats what I learned in real estate school
CW

Its ok, I'm not interested in start legal disputes over a wisteria lol. I don't even really like the plant that much, just want it for the added experience and another tree to turn in to bonsai and maintain.
Ok thanks for that.

 

[rockm]

Careful you may get what you wish for. Wisteria is easy to collect, it roots like a weed and is an invasive pest here in the eastern U.S. Soil should be relatively rich, unlike other bonsai. Soil can be potting soil, dirt and 1/3 sand. They will grow in just about anything.

I have had pruned branches root just by sticking them in the ground and keeping them wet. I don't do cuttings with wisteria. That approach is kind of laughable for me, since they're wild all around me and I can just go out and dig a larger trunk out of the back woodlot.

Anyway, as bonsai they are a royal pain in the ass. If you can get them to bloom (which a cutting may or may not do, depending on the parent's age and the age of the shoot you're air layering) It's a crap shoot. Inducing one to bloom can take decades, or a month. Depends. Also you have to go BIG with wisteria, because their flower racemes can be a foot long or longer. You need a substantial, taller trunk to physically and visually support those blooms--if your tree produces any

They are rampant growers and will take over the back yard or wherever you're growing them in a year if left to their own devices. The plant is also capable of tearing the siding off your house and if it "escapes" into the ground through an errant shoot or root that grows out of a pot drain hole, plague you and your neighbors for years with runners. There have been vines here in the States that have literally knocked houses off their foundations over the years, as the plants grew and grew and GREW...

They are ugly as bonsai for literally ten months of the year, but require a lot of attention. good luck

 

[ConorDash]

Thanks for all of that @rockm , it may be different here for us, given the UKs climate. The one that the neighbours do have, is pretty wild and I can understand how they do get everywhere.
I think to be honest, Im expecting little out of it, but it gives me the chance to try out Air layering or propagating of some kind, before I have to do it on a more cherished Bonsai. So there's that experience.
And its a readily available material for me, given the very large one next door. I think the vines growing over my fence are probably big enough to air layer really.
Thats good info on the compost, thank you.

I think it'd look pretty cool if I got a bit of a drooping branch with a big fat flowering blooming on the end of it, but Ill try get a taller trunk so it can support it.
Also quite like the idea of it being a lot of attention, even if not for a great reward. I like the "jumping in the deep end" method of learning. All about experience and learning.
Thanks.

 

[rockm]

What you don't want

 

[ConorDash]

@rockm I wouldn't mind that if the house came with it, looks pretty awesome!

So you don't think its possible for a really great looking bonsai to have a real miniature version of that? I think its limited by how small the flowers will shrink. Im guessing they simply don't shrink much so it kinda throws everything else out.
Little question. If I find a good section of branch, do the air layering etc, so the base of it is all good. What if it has 5 foot of vine coming from the top? I assume I just simply chop that top bit off, down to whatever I like?

 

[rockm]

Thing to remember for bonsai FLOWERS DON'T REDUCE on anything. Leaves will, flowers won't. I've not seen a wisteria bonsai much under 50 lbs. They are not small plants. Wisteria bonsai are created like most bonsai, reducing a large trunk substantially. A fifty foot vine can yield a powerful, gnarly foot wide, three foot trunk for bonsai raw material. Even a 10-30 foot vine can push a remarkable trunk which is why many bonsaists living in their adopted ranges don't buy them at nurseries or bother with cuttings. There's terrific material for free-since most landowners WANT you to dig it up and haul it off. Some will even pay you to do so.

However, since wisteria is a vine, its wood is not very durable. Big trunks can rot substantially once they're reduced. It's a problem.

 

[ConorDash]

Thing to remember for bonsai FLOWERS DON'T REDUCE on anything. Leaves will, flowers won't. I've not seen a wisteria bonsai much under 50 lbs. They are not small plants. Wisteria bonsai are created like most bonsai, reducing a large trunk substantially. A fifty foot vine can yield a powerful, gnarly foot wide, three foot trunk for bonsai raw material. Even a 10-30 foot vine can push a remarkable trunk which is why many bonsaists living in their adopted ranges don't buy them at nurseries or bother with cuttings. There's terrific material for free-since most landowners WANT you to dig it up and haul it off. Some will even pay you to do so.

However, since wisteria is a vine, its wood is not very durable. Big trunks can rot substantially once they're reduced. It's a problem.

Ah, learn something new everyday. I know that leaves can be reduced and that's a much desired outcome but assumed same could be said for flowers, guess not.
I think this sounds like quite a unique experience or maybe difficult which is really intriguing me. If it fails, fine but good experience and ill certainly be doing everything I possibly can to make it successful.
Ill have to have a good look at some branches.

Could you tell me... What do you think I should look for a potential section of branch, to make a good trunk for bonsai? I guess that question would relate to all propagation that is done.

 

[rockm]

That question is relative. The gnarlier, more twisted the better. I wouldn't bother with a straight portion. Here are some typical examples that are growing in a parking garage behind my workplace. Weedy tall trunks like this can be sawed to a foot or two and dug up. An interesting first foot or two is what you're after. Twisted, gnarled snake like twists in the trunk the better. Avoid stovepipe straight trunks...

 

[ConorDash]

That question is relative. The gnarlier, more twisted the better. I wouldn't bother with a straight portion. Here are some typical examples that are growing in a parking garage behind my workplace. Weedy tall trunks like this can be sawed to a foot or two and dug up. An interesting first foot or two is what you're after. Twisted, gnarled snake like twists in the trunk the better. Avoid stovepipe straight trunks...

Ok thanks, that's still good info. I'll see what I can get.. The neighbour is moving so he probably won't care what I take. It has really some what inspired me to make this successful though. I'll avoid stovepipe-esque . On way home now, see what I can get.
Do you mind if I PM you in future @rockm ?

 

[rockm]

No problem. I will just say this--digging up an entire trunk will give you a much better chance at actually doing a wisteria bonsai than a cutting...

 

[ConorDash]

No problem. I will just say this--digging up an entire trunk will give you a much better chance at actually doing a wisteria bonsai than a cutting...

Hmm alright that's interesting.. So a whole trunk then cut to the size id want, because obviously it'd be huge. Cut the roots back.. Hmm that wouldn't be layering so not sure how that'd work.
If you were to uproot something in that way, to turn in to bonsai, what would the process be called? Wouldn't be air layering, cutting or sapling.. Not ground layering either. Difficult to research when I can't describe it lol

 

[LanceMac10]

Ah, learn something new everyday. I know that leaves can be reduced and that's a much desired outcome but assumed same could be said for flowers, guess not.
I think this sounds like quite a unique experience or maybe difficult which is really intriguing me. If it fails, fine but good experience and ill certainly be doing everything I possibly can to make it successful.
Ill have to have a good look at some branches.

Could you tell me... What do you think I should look for a potential section of branch, to make a good trunk for bonsai? I guess that question would relate to all propagation that is done.

Get experience with general care first, leave the advanced techniques for later. Wisterias look great for about a minute.....

Try to find something established if you can. Try to fit it in the budget. Starting out with cuttings will have you sitting around for a couple years as you wait for it to establish a root pad....with nothing for you to do!!

 

[rockm]

FWIW, this one is at the U.S. National Arboretum in Washington. It's 4-5 feet tall and developed about 100 years ago by chopping a larger vine, digging it up and training branches. BTW, branching doesn't just "happen" with these. It is a project to develop branches that bloom. These tend to want to put all their energy into vegetative growth, not flowers. You also have to learn to discern between leaf buds and flower buds, timing hard pruning to make those flower buds become actual flowers and a few other specialized tasks that will be mostly useless for any other bonsai. ;-)

 

[rockm]

Hmm alright that's interesting.. So a whole trunk then cut to the size id want, because obviously it'd be huge. Cut the roots back.. Hmm that wouldn't be layering so not sure how that'd work.
If you were to uproot something in that way, to turn in to bonsai, what would the process be called? Wouldn't be air layering, cutting or sapling.. Not ground layering either. Difficult to research when I can't describe it lol

It's called collecting a tree. Wisteria are such strong growers, you don't have to get a lot of roots to begin with. They push new roots into moist soil very easily.
It would help to know how big the trunk is, however, before setting you to the task.

Collecting a tree can be backbreaking, especially with aggressive root systems like wisteria. You're going to need more than a shovel..."push" hand-pruning saw, bypass cutters and possibly a heavy iron pry bar. God help you if this is up against a building foundation.