Deciduous Azalea Techniques

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Okay, at least you have some deciduous azalea, northern lights types, in the landscape. Point of the thread is actual experience. Not speculation, not Satsuki. There are enough Satsuki threads,

I am not certain, as I am learning myself. Your description of the difficulty of removing ovaries of seed pods sounds "overwrought". In satsuki it is simple to snip the developing seed pods off with a scissors. Is it REALLY that different for a deciduous azalea? Not speculation, but in real life?

My first deciduous azalea was Mandarin Lights, I owned it from roughly 2005 to 2008. I don't remember the developing seed pods, post flowering as being difficult to remove at all.

My second is 'White Lights', which I bought in autumn 2019, and have yet to see bloom, so I am not that experience with deciduous azalea. The reason I started this thread is to learn, but every thread I read gets crapped up with Satsuki information, and with speculation from satsuki information. This is why I am dogging about "real experience".

So, is it really that hard to remove developing seed pods?

 

[Forsoothe!]

It's worst on Flame, but that's a bridge too far, anyway. Lights are mostly sterile, I think, and have fewer foliage buds at the base of the flower head, mostly 2 or 1.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Okay. fair enough. Let's keep to actual experience. I know what sorts of speculation I can do, and I have been restraining myself. Point of this thread is to see from experience what sort of pruning program is needed. I agree the long internodes have to be removed. If done immediately after blooming, I want to see what the effect is on subsequent blooming, not speculate about it, but see what the effect actually is.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@Underdog -
Doesn't look like there are flower buds tucked into those expanding buds, but who knows, definitely keep us posted. Right now I am planning on pruning after blooming. If I don't get blooms, I'll try pruning about July 4th, or shortly there after. I would not wait too late in the year.

You might try not pruning for a full year, see if the next segment of growth will bloom.

@KiwiPlantGuy - Charles, Long ago I abandoned the old myth that zero nitrogen fertilizers are "good" for blooming plants. I use a formula that is balanced to what the plants actually use. My "Blueberry Special" fertilizer for acid loving plants is 11-2-6 with 11 micro-nutrients including magnesium. It contains zero calcium. Virtually all plants use nutrients is a ratio of about 12-1-4, if you are using urea or ammoniacal nitrogen, if you are using nitrate nitrogen as a source you up the K to about the same as the nitrogen. The low nitrogen myth was from experimental error made in a study at Kew Gardens back in the 1880's. It gets repeated in gardening book after gardening book. Abandon your gardening book, go to your University where they do agricultural research. You will see no mention of zero nitrogen fertilizer for blooming plants. I use that 11-2-6 on blooming blueberries, and have never had a problem. Fertilize with it in summer, autumn and in spring. No problems. High phosphorous also causes a host of problems. Normally phosphorous is a limiting nutrient. Most plants have no "off switch" for phosphorous uptake. It is possible to do real damage to you trees by over-doing it with high phosphorous fertilizers. I recommend switching to a fertilizer that is more balanced to what the plant actually uses. In humans, if we consumed the same amount of vitamin D as vitamin C we would have Vitamin D poisoning. Not all nutrients are taken up at the same rate. Nor are the needed at the same levels. A 12-1-4 is balanced for what a tree uses. Fortunately rain water flushes out excess fertilizer, or there would be many more dead trees than there currently are. But the excess fertilizer then is wasted. It becomes part of the urban run off to your storm water system. No need to contribute to eutrophication of our streams and lakes if we don't have to. Potassium is the most soluble of nutrients on the list, and is easily leached out of the plant's tissues by rain. So if a fertilizer is heavy in K, one rainstorm will take care of it.

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

@Underdog -
Doesn't look like there are flower buds tucked into those expanding buds, but who knows, definitely keep us posted. Right now I am planning on pruning after blooming. If I don't get blooms, I'll try pruning about July 4th, or shortly there after. I would not wait too late in the year.

You might try not pruning for a full year, see if the next segment of growth will bloom.

@KiwiPlantGuy - Charles, Long ago I abandoned the old myth that zero nitrogen fertilizers are "good" for blooming plants. I use a formula that is balanced to what the plants actually use. My "Blueberry Special" fertilizer for acid loving plants is 11-2-6 with 11 micro-nutrients including magnesium. It contains zero calcium. Virtually all plants use nutrients is a ratio of about 12-1-4, if you are using urea or ammoniacal nitrogen, if you are using nitrate nitrogen as a source you up the K to about the same as the nitrogen. The low nitrogen myth was from experimental error made in a study at Kew Gardens back in the 1880's. It gets repeated in gardening book after gardening book. Abandon your gardening book, go to your University where they do agricultural research. You will see no mention of zero nitrogen fertilizer for blooming plants. I use that 11-2-6 on blooming blueberries, and have never had a problem. Fertilize with it in summer, autumn and in spring. No problems. High phosphorous also causes a host of problems. Normally phosphorous is a limiting nutrient. Most plants have no "off switch" for phosphorous uptake. It is possible to do real damage to you trees by over-doing it with high phosphorous fertilizers. I recommend switching to a fertilizer that is more balanced to what the plant actually uses. In humans, if we consumed the same amount of vitamin D as vitamin C we would have Vitamin D poisoning. Not all nutrients are taken up at the same rate. Nor are the needed at the same levels. A 12-1-4 is balanced for what a tree uses. Fortunately rain water flushes out excess fertilizer, or there would be many more dead trees than there currently are. But the excess fertilizer then is wasted. It becomes part of the urban run off to your storm water system. No need to contribute to eutrophication of our streams and lakes if we don't have to. Potassium is the most soluble of nutrients on the list, and is easily leached out of the plant's tissues by rain. So if a fertilizer is heavy in K, one rainstorm will take care of it.

Hi Leo,
Thank you for your detailed answer. I won’t clog up your thread with my comments/speculation.

I just have this to say. It seems like you are comparing internode length of DA with flowering and fruiting blueberries in regards to Nitrogen. I wouldn’t have thought you would be worried about blueberries and their internode length so yes I am totally agreeing with you as per your fertiliser regime.
Now I will disagree with you about a medium level of nitrogen needed for flowering. I don’t think you need me to state that Nitrogen used in the Spring causes new growth to enlongate and that is what we don't want for DA.
As per commercially bought fertiliser, most are well balanced in NPK which normally contains too much Nitrogen. I was more thinking about using a hydroponic brew with a low CF reading watering it once a week.

I will leave and return here with a new plant which more than likely will be a Mollis hybrid.
Sorry again for interfering in your thread. It must be the Country-wide lockdown which we are 1/2 way (2 weeks of 4) and me being bored.
Charles

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Its okay Charles, you are not interfering. In my post I said nothing about internode length. Yes nitrogen can cause internodes to elongate. So in spring I fertilize less, but when I fertilize I use the high nitrogen blend, because without nitrogen, the other nutrients are useless. In spring I fertilize at about 40 ppm as Nitrogen, this is very dilute. In late summer and autumn, I fertilize with a "half of label strength" concentration, roughly 90 to 120 ppm as N. Most fertilizers, if you follow label directions will give you a solution around 200 ppm if it is labeled for orchids or houseplants. Fertilizer labeled for vegetable gardens can give you a concentration around 1000 ppm as Nitrogen. So I fertilize, weakly, weekly. I am a firm believer that a frequent availability of fertilizer in dilute concentration is much healthier for a plant than strong surges of concentrated fertilizer. As I noted previously, I don't have a lot of experience with Deciduous Azalea, or Exbury hybrid azalea, but I do have experience with many other trees, and my internode lengths are not elongated at all. I know writing fertilizer concentrations as parts per million as Nitrogen requires you to take out a calculator to calculate what concentrations you need to use to replicate it, but by doing the math, you can use any brand of fertilizer more effectively.

web calculator for fertilizer concentrations.

Fertilizer TDS Calculator » First Rays LLC

A simple Fertilizer TDS Calculator to help you truly manage your feeding regimen.

firstrays.com

Mollis hybrids are deciduous, so definitely post your results here. Thanks.

To save people the time with the calculator. one teaspoon is roughly 5 ml by volume, one tablespoon is 15 ml by volume, one gallon = 3.78 liters
for the 11-2-6 acid fertilizer
1/4 teaspoon per gallon yields 36 ppm as N solution adding a total of 55 ppm to total dissolved solids. This is rather dilute. This rate, is a good spring time dose rate.
1 teaspoon per gallon yields 145 ppm as N solution, adding a total of 223 ppm to total dissolved solids this is about what most comercial house plant fertilizers will direct you to use. This is a good late summer dose rate.

 

[Forsoothe!]

Okay, at least you have some deciduous azalea, northern lights types, in the landscape. Point of the thread is actual experience. Not speculation, not Satsuki. There are enough Satsuki threads,

I am not certain, as I am learning myself. Your description of the difficulty of removing ovaries of seed pods sounds "overwrought". In satsuki it is simple to snip the developing seed pods off with a scissors. Is it REALLY that different for a deciduous azalea? Not speculation, but in real life?

My first deciduous azalea was Mandarin Lights, I owned it from roughly 2005 to 2008. I don't remember the developing seed pods, post flowering as being difficult to remove at all.

My second is 'White Lights', which I bought in autumn 2019, and have yet to see bloom, so I am not that experience with deciduous azalea. The reason I started this thread is to learn, but every thread I read gets crapped up with Satsuki information, and with speculation from satsuki information. This is why I am dogging about "real experience".

So, is it really that hard to remove developing seed pods?

I apologize for introducing Satsuki into this. They are different, except they are even worse on long internodes, except again, there are many, maybe even most labeled as Satsuki that are not Satsuki and don't grow like that at all. I'm not sure that there is even a separate species with that nomenclature. So I'll never mention it again. Please forgive me.

 

[Underdog]

Doesn't look like there are flower buds tucked into those expanding buds, but who knows, definitely keep us posted. Right now I am planning on pruning after blooming. If I don't get blooms, I'll try pruning about July 4th, or shortly there after. I would not wait too late in the year.

Well, I'm learning or confusing myself or both. What I researched said the flower should come out first before the leaves so my orange leaves must be all I'll get this year.
I went back thru my notes and pics to find I did no pruning after the May 24th repot and prune. I asked about it in June in my first post #5. I zoomed in on my pics from fall and winter to verify an evening prune with wine in hand didn't happen and not get noted
The wind knocked it over a couple days ago and my poor choice to not wire it in was obvious. On the bright side, the rootball has filled the container enough to stay in tact and not loose too much soil or do any significant damage.

So now I'm thinking of cutting it back now instead of waiting until June? I'd like to loose one of the 4 trunks but assume this would be better during dormancy. I'd like to cut back to a smaller growing branch or bud on each trunk. Maybe leaving the one I want to remove alone for a bit more vigor. Then wire it back into the plastic pot with no rootwork except for a bottom layer of granite river biscuits added for weight.

Sound plan or wait for this growth to harden off first or? Thanks for the input..

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I'd cut back now, rather than wait, you are probably right, no blooms coming for 2020. So do the cut. I'd even make the big cut to get rid of the 4th trunk. Sounds like a plan.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Pruning with a wine glass in hand, or my case, bourbon whiskey, long ago learned that was a bad idea. Bourbon when done pruning, that is a good idea.

 

[MorddexxBonsai]

Just trimmed my new Gibraltar to get rid of the longest internodes and reduced to two to 3 branches per trunk. Wired to spread the branches out some. Left the smallest growth and internodes alone. The orange cut paste shows where I took off branches.

 

[Underdog]

I'm with you Mduxx. we'll see how they respond.
As they always say, shoulda chopped it lower...
I'm good w/it. Larger leaves, flowers and internodes seem to beg for a larger tree.

 

[Underdog]

Repotted this morning adding granite in the bottom for weight and drainage. Tightly wired in this time. Chopsticked in a fair amount of sphagnum around the edges and topped with DE, Lava and bark fines. Same as it was already in. I also sealed the cuts with 2 brushed on coats of waterproof wood glue yesterday immediately after the cuts. Hopefully it thrives.

We have some freezing weather coming I suppose I should protect it from? Even though I didn't cut or even mess with the rootball at all? I guess with 2 tip overs and me wiring it in and repotting it was agitated enough. Better safe than sorry I suppose.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@Underdog - I like the reduction to 3 trunks. Nice. And because of the "vacation in Florida", I'd definitely keep it frost free.

@MorddexxBonsai
Nice I like the staggered heights of the branches.

Looking forward to future developments.
28 F tonight, with below freezing every night through Thursday, I am putting off repotting my White Lights.

 

[WWest]

Greetings from Iowa! I recently decided to get back into bonsai and stumbled on this forum. This thread caught my attention as I am trying to make azaleas part of my focus and am also interested in the potential, if any, of deciduous species. Because I am in my later 60’s, I am seeking material that won’t take forever to develop. After searching local landscape material, I did happen upon the deciduous Millennium variety and this particular specimen seemed to offer some real possibilities without too much drastic manipulation starting out. I suspect it is really two plants but when I potted it the two had apparently fused together pretty solid so I plan to treat as one. My focus for now is its health so I am thinking if it shows signs of weakness as it recovers from potting I will remove the flower buds. I have had it a couple of weeks and the leaves have come out substantially. I regret not taking a before picture. It had a new leader strong, thick and straight growing out the center. You can see where it was removed. If you deem this post relevant to this thread I can keep you updated as to the progress.

I would say that the robust nature and additional colors (orange, yellow, etc.) of deciduous species seems to be a worthwhile endeavor (also fall color). As to husbandry I am keeping mine in a basement egress window well (south facing with translucent cover). This has been a godsend for winterIng and summer use as it moderates temperature year round. Will place outside after our back and forth weather stabilizes.

BTW, this one is about 18” tall (excluding pot).

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@WWest
Welcome to the deciduous azalea thread. Yes, 'Millennium' counts as deciduous. Nice looking azalea. It probably is a single root system, deciduous types tend to form a cluster of trunks right at the soil line. A single cutting will push multiple buds. Nice. You window well is a good winter storage area. Though deciduous azalea are noted for exceptional hardiness. What zone (how cold) is 'Millennium' listed to be able to survive?

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

'Soft Shimmer'
'Soft Shimmer' is a deciduous azalea I picked up from Singing Tree Nursery for $25. Mail order can be hit or miss, 8 ordered 8 different trees from Singing Tree, 5 were definitely hits, 2 were fair deals, one was a bit small for the price, especially next to the more generous plant for less next to it. But I was ordering specific cultivars, and sometimes you get what they have. I only ordered one of each, so only one 'Soft Shimmer'. If you look close at the twig terminal buds, you can see flower buds in with the leaf buds. It blooms right away as it opens in spring.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I ended up simply unwrapping the root ball, and sliding the tree into a nursery pot that pretty much fit the root ball exactly. Topped up with a little nursery potting mix of the same type that the 'Soft Shimmer' came in. So this does not count as a repot. After blooming, maybe early August I'll do a proper repot and pruning job on this one. Or after blooming I'll do the pruning, and later do the repotting.

Buds are developing rapidly, in just 2 days.

 

[Underdog]

I wonder if this was my downfall of pruning immediately after flowering and why no flowers this year?

From Bonsai Empire>>>
Flowering and fruiting plants are a separate case, because they should be left free to grow. They should only be pruned at the end of summer, after the differentiation between flower buds and leaf buds has been established. Flower buds develop at the bases of branches that have grown during the year.

If you prune the branches before the buds are differentiated, which generally happens around the end of June, the reduction of the leaf surface area obliges the plant to increase the number of leaf buds and abandon flower buds in order to re-establish a balance in the existing foliage.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I wonder if this was my downfall of pruning immediately after flowering and why no flowers this year?

From Bonsai Empire>>>
Flowering and fruiting plants are a separate case, because they should be left free to grow. They should only be pruned at the end of summer, after the differentiation between flower buds and leaf buds has been established. Flower buds develop at the bases of branches that have grown during the year.

If you prune the branches before the buds are differentiated, which generally happens around the end of June, the reduction of the leaf surface area obliges the plant to increase the number of leaf buds and abandon flower buds in order to re-establish a balance in the existing foliage.

But with deciduous azalea, the flower for 2021 buds form at the terminal ends of of branches that develop in 2020. Last part of the branch to be created and matured. I need to think about this.

Since neither of mine have been pruned at all, I got no experience to evaluate the note from Bonsai Empire.