Design Time

[irene_b]

Tom I like the dragon tail on it!
It really is great.
Irene

 

[Tachigi]

Thanks Irene, after doing the virt it kinda grew on me.

 

[cbobgo]

Colin's idea of seperating the live root from the deadwood (on the tail) and pulling it down is actually a really good solution, and not as drastic as it sounds. I'm sure you could pull it off.

- bob

 

[Behr]

Mr. Tom,

In my opinion, and not likely a popular one, you have here a 'beautifully ugly', wonderful, piece of material...This tree has character that many of us only dream of owning...It looks ancient, looks as if it has survived centuries of abuse by mother nature, as if even the very ground it began on has over time been eroded away...

I have a difficult time understanding why anyone would want to destroy what the tree has in order to attempt to make it conform to some 'idealized' form...I think Mr. Jose Luis of Puerto Rico said it even better than I can "Adhering oneself to these strict principles, which I consider guidelines, is like castrating the art without reason. I have seen too many trees that do not adhere to the so called "Japanese" aesthetics ruined by force"...Here in the United States we tend to give far too much importance to 'doing it by the numbers', and in doing so often fail to make the best use of the material we are fortunate enough to have the opportunity to work with...Even Mr. Bill Valavanis has come to realize this 'United States bonsai mentality' and has stated "Too many times people tend to design, display and enjoy bonsai art to please others. In fact, bonsai and suiseki "rules" in America are more strict than in Japan. Really! Some stones and some bonsai which are not appreciated in America as "authentic" or "true" are often accepted in Japan. AND likewise, some bonsai and stones in Japan would never be accepted in America"...

As has been pointed out by yourself and others, to attempt to make this tree conform to the so-called 'standards' we have all been taught, is not only endangering the tree but also turning it into a life-time project that may never be satisfactorily completed...Ask yourself this, "If this material were in the hands of a Chinese artist or any other region that was not limited and constrained by 'Japanese tradition', would he/she be desiring to eliminate the most unique and outstanding characteristics of the tree?"...

I would suggest you take a long hard look at some of the work of the 'penjing' artists, Robert Steven, Min Hsuan Lo, and Nick Lenz, to see if there may be a work of 'art' hiding in this material without the possibility of destroying it...Perhaps not your original vision of the material, but often I find that working with the material instead of trying to make the tree conform to our desire will result in a much more appealing and artistic image...Perhaps this tree would even be best used in a penjing landscape setting where stones could be used to lessen the 'gap' under the 'dragon tail' if you truly find it that distracting...Personally I don't, but find it intriguing instead...I don’t know what is under the current soil line, but I would be inclined to raise it even farther out of the soil rather than bury it deeper IF there are some decent larger roots lower down…

Thank you for sharing the photos and I hope to be around long enough to see what you do with this wonderful spruce...

Regards
Behr

 

[Jay Wilson]

This has been a very interesting and informative thread!
Tom, Thanks for showing the tree and thank you to all the others who shared their insights.
Jay

 

[Tachigi]

Greetings Behr, I am so glad you commented. Your opinions are always popular with me and welcomed.

you have here a 'beautifully ugly', wonderful, piece of material ......It looks ancient, looks as if it has survived centuries of abuse by mother nature, as if even the very ground it began on has over time been eroded away...

I had looked at this tree as beautiful never 'beautifully ugly'. However I believe that is a better description. You are right, the tree according to the guys at Walter Reed hospital, is a minimum of 400years old. This was based on a branch cutting taken early on. They put it under a electron microscope or something and counted the rings at about 300 or so if memory serves me. So the vision is a true one, one that took mother nature a very long time to forge.

I have a difficult time understanding why anyone would want to destroy what the tree has in order to attempt to make it conform to some 'idealized' form....I have seen too many trees that do not adhere to the so called "Japanese" aesthetics ruined by force"...Here in the United States we tend to give far too much importance to 'doing it by the numbers', and in doing so often fail to make the best use of the material we are fortunate enough to have the opportunity to work with...

I can assure you that I would never ever destroy what the tree has to offer or what it clung on to for so many centuries. This tree on a good day could not be conformed to any Japanese aesthetical rule. Which was the appeal, when I found it. It was very different than what I have been seeing. My training has been that of breaking away from Japanese traditional disciplines. That is if the tree has something else to offer. My large Juniper screamed traditional styling so that is what I went for. This tree doesn't and working by the "numbers" is not an option here. I do believe that people in both camps draw a hard line between western and eastern (Japanese). I believe there is a gray area in between that can marry the two together and make a so called hybrid of the two. That is what I am striving for. Who knows maybe in another 15 or twenty years I'll figure it out.

As has been pointed out by yourself and others, to attempt to make this tree conform to the so-called 'standards' we have all been taught, is not only endangering the tree but also turning it into a life-time project that may never be satisfactorily completed...Ask yourself this, "If this material were in the hands of a Chinese artist or any other region that was not limited and constrained by 'Japanese tradition', would he/she be desiring to eliminate the most unique and outstanding characteristics of the tree?"...

When I offered up this thread, in my mind, I pretty much new what I would do. The original post came from ideas that were offered up at a study group that Colin Lewis attended a few months back. I wanted to see what other ideas might be thought up taking in horticultural practices along with the aesthetics of art. I have found here and out there genuinely brilliant ideas when a piece is offered up that has great potential. It seems peoples brains start ticking in this situation. I think the number of responses show that. What was interesting is that a fast majority of people choose planting angles vs. removal/reconstruction. If I'm not mistaken, I believe that those choices fall into your ideology. My wife (who I love dearly) made it very clear (in no uncertain terms) to me that she wanted to see a semi finished form of this tree before she died .... I intend to honor her wishes.

So rest assured Behr that the art in this tree will come through. At least to the best of my ability. As always your comments are thought provoking, welcomed and enjoyed.

 

[Tachigi]

This has been a very interesting and informative thread!
Tom, Thanks for showing the tree and thank you to all the others who shared their insights.
Jay

Yes, it has Jay. So much better when people focus on bonsai than family feuding.

 

[Rick Moquin]

I would suggest you take a long hard look at some of the work of the 'penjing' artists, Robert Steven, Min Hsuan Lo, and Nick Lenz, to see if there may be a work of 'art' hiding in this material without the possibility of destroying it...Perhaps not your original vision of the material, but often I find that working with the material instead of trying to make the tree conform to our desire will result in a much more appealing and artistic image...Perhaps this tree would even be best used in a penjing landscape setting where stones could be used to lessen the 'gap' under the 'dragon tail' if you truly find it that distracting...

... now that is an interesting reply

 

[Tachigi]

Its been almost a year since I started this post and thought I would give an update. The spruce has found a new home in a nice rectangle pot that fit the tree (IMO) very nicely. Some of the suggestions from this thread were incorporated and a few that I came up with on my own. The deadwood from the dragon's tail was separated slightly to get the root closer to soil level. The aerial type root on the right hand side was eliminated and part of it that is close to the trunk will be jinned. The tree was rotated clockwise and tilted forward slightly to give more exposure to the deadwood in the back. I am quite pleased at the out come of the repot and think that the tree might have a future.

 

[Chris Johnston]

Okay, you are teasing us with these small photos, right? Come on, show us what you got, just like Kansas showed the NCAA!

 

[Rick Moquin]

Man! such a winnie pic for such a big tree. You ought to be ashamed of yourself. Nicely done from what I can see

 

[Tachigi]

Man! such a winnie pic for such a big tree. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

Errrrrrr....*cough* *cough*....... I believe its spelled weenie and your right, my apologize

 

[Mooseman]

Very striking tree, and a nice result with the aerial root, especially once it's jinned. However, glass-houses and stones spring to mind with regard to your last post...

 

[Rick Moquin]

Now that's more like it, at least now I can see your handy work Beautiful initial styling on this one, it has promise.

 

[ianb]

Here it is a little bigger. We had some fun trying to get this guy in the pot but where there is a will there's a way.

Tom can I get my shoehorn back?

 

[JTGJr25]

Very nice work. I like how you talked out the possibilities and in the end it worked out perfectly. Funny how those things happen.

Tom

 

[cquinn]

Bump! Any more news on this one. I love it!

 

[FourMileMarc]

One of my favorites in this forum. Good Job, I also like the "tallon" on the lower left of the trunk.

 

[discusmike]

Thats the best blue spruce i think ive ever seen.Powerful