Did I do This Chop Correctly?

[BobbyLane]

absolutely nothing wrong with taking the inititiative and diving in head first, ive always learnt best by doing my own thing. if your experiment fails, big deal just get another tree and try a different approach. you dont need to ask permission for every little thing and most of the time the answer could be found with a little research. I cant remember asking someone when was the best time to do this or that, I just do it and see what happens. ive also lost a maple from chopping it to nothing and then sticking it in the ground, it died back. I knew it was risky but did it anyway and that was only 2 years ago this happened, its really not a big deal, it didnt even cost much.

 

[_#1_]

permission

Not so much permission but rather guidance.

 

[BobbyLane]

Just to follow up on my point about it being species specific, here's a hornbeam that was chopped low to one shoot, albeit not quite as low as the maple.
This was done around spring, then put in the ground, where it almost healed all around after 3 years. I mentioned 'good roots' well this to me is an example of a good, healthy root system, which does make a difference with these decisions.

with that said, I do try to make chops with at the least a node on other side. but again just experiment.
The op has now found out for himself that maples can be finnicky. good work.

 

[Shibui]

Not to derail from the post but I felt it was relevant to the discussion. With respect to @Shibui's advice about chopping in stages; would it be best to forgo chopping altogether if I were considering collecting from the ground?

The JM (palmatum) in question will have been in the ground just shy of five years next spring. I'm unsure ( and hesitant to ask a stupid question) which would be more appropriate. I know it's not uncommon to have some reduction in deciduous during collection but at the same time due to sap flow larger cuts wouldn't come until later in the season to reduce excessive bleeding. I've successfully chopped and collected other deciduous of different sp. but this would be the first time with a JM. I know the general answer as to could it go in the ground longer is almost always yes, lol, but the area where it was planted is becoming over crowded (struggling from success, heh),

Provided there are healthy branches below the chop site, preferably on several sides of the trunk a chop at collection should be OK. Bleeding maples is not usually a problem when roots have been cut too.
Chopped roots need branches above to feed them. Chopped branches need roots to feed them. JM seem to develop defined sap pathways and need to be reduced a little at a time to allow new sap paths to develop from roots to branches or loss of related roots/branches is probable.

 

[jandslegate]

Provided there are healthy branches below the chop site, preferably on several sides of the trunk a chop at collection should be OK. Bleeding maples is not usually a problem when roots have been cut too.
Chopped roots need branches above to feed them. Chopped branches need roots to feed them. JM seem to develop defined sap pathways and need to be reduced a little at a time to allow new sap paths to develop from roots to branches or loss of related roots/branches is probable.

Thank you for this.

 

[It's Kev]

soooo, had this tree been air layered, would the stump have met the same fate?
coz i posted that thread about grafted JMs, then i impulsively found a JM with a very low graft and figured i could also just air-layer and then have 2 different types of JM

OR

would it have been better to for instance layer above the lowest foliage and then decrease the stump gradually as previously stated?

 

[dbonsaiw]

soooo, had this tree been air layered, would the stump have met the same fate?
coz i posted that thread about grafted JMs, then i impulsively found a JM with a very low graft and figured i could also just air-layer and then have 2 different types of JM

OR

would it have been better to for instance layer above the lowest foliage and then decrease the stump gradually as previously stated?

Not sure. This started as a grafted tree and I kept the rootstock, not the scion. I could have layered the tree this year and then cut the trunk the following year, with no guarantees on how it would have performed. The problem here is that there are no branches feeding parts of the trunk. A nicer root system wouldn't solve this.

I have two questions myself -

(1) what would have happened if I pruned it back to the lower branch at the start, instead of chopping at 12"? Would this have encouraged other low buds to grow and prevent the death of half the trunk?

(2) I cut back to 12" and then cut back again really far down a few months later. What if I didn't make the second cut (and also no additional branches grew)? Wouldn't I be in the same situation with just a larger piece of dead trunk?

 

[It's Kev]

Not sure. This started as a grafted tree and I kept the rootstock, not the scion. I could have layered the tree this year and then cut the trunk the following year, with no guarantees on how it would have performed. The problem here is that there are no branches feeding parts of the trunk. A nicer root system wouldn't solve this.

I have two questions myself -

(1) what would have happened if I pruned it back to the lower branch at the start, instead of chopping at 12"? Would this have encouraged other low buds to grow and prevent the death of half the trunk?

(2) I cut back to 12" and then cut back again really far down a few months later. What if I didn't make the second cut (and also no additional branches grew)? Wouldn't I be in the same situation with just a larger piece of dead trunk?

it seems like suckers on a grafted JM aren't really a thing then?

 

[dbonsaiw]

it seems like suckers on a grafted JM aren't really a thing then?

I'm not 100% what happened here. One shoot was growing from the rootstock when I purchased it. When I chopped the scion off, the rootstock did backbud. However, it did so only very low down and sparsely. I had this issue with other non-grafted maples as well. Clearly, I did something wrong in the lead up to the chops. I'm really at a loss what that could be (at least for most of the trees), and so my post-mortum is that JMs can be a little more finicky than some other species when it comes to blind chops. Otherwise, I don't see why a rootstock could not be re-grown into a tree by removing the scion - although this usually isn't the process as we generally want the scion cultivar.

 

[Springer]

Looking to develop a short and fat bonsai with this tree and chopped it down yesterday. The leader was growing almost laterally, so I guy wired it to about 45 degrees. I'm going to grow out the leader for the next few years, but wanted to make sure this has been set up to grow correctly. Specifically, should the leader be angled differently? Should the angled cut be made on steeper angle?

The stump is about 3.5" tall and 2.5" thick above the root flare.

I believe one thing you need to do is seal that wound to keep it from drying out. I've done similar chops short like that but was always advised to cover the wounds. The latex type not the putty is usually better.
IMHO.....

 

[dbonsaiw]

Just wanted to follow up on this learning experience. The tree is definitely healthy, but ugly as sin. One side has indeed died back. Roots have grown into the ground so he can stay where he is for now. Open to any suggestions, but absent that it will be my guinea pig and an easy source for cuttings. FWIW, this learning experience was definitely easier than an apprenticeship in Japan.

Live and learn. The next JM benefitted from the acquired knowledge - it has been cut back to an existing branch and can continue its development (slower).

 

[Damage Inc]

I for one am very appreciative of you sharing the progress from big chop to healthy tree. From my limited experience I would only be able to guess that things don't always work out for many reasons but it's great to see follow ups and instances of just how far you can push big moves like this. Thanks for posting the follow up!

 

[leus]

Just wanted to follow up on this learning experience. The tree is definitely healthy, but ugly as sin. One side has indeed died back. Roots have grown into the ground so he can stay where he is for now. Open to any suggestions, but absent that it will be my guinea pig and an easy source for cuttings. FWIW, this learning experience was definitely easier than an apprenticeship in Japan.

Live and learn. The next JM benefitted from the acquired knowledge - it has been cut back to an existing branch and can continue its development (slower).

That’s not ugly. In fact, looks like a very promising tree.

 

[dbonsaiw]

That’s not ugly. In fact, looks like a very promising tree.

Do tell, I am open to suggestions.