barrosinc
Masterpiece
Do these trees (or something super similar), grow from seeds and make a good enough tree for bonsai? Or usually these must be layered or grafted?
do Deshojo, dissectum, arakawa, bloodgood grow from seed?
- Thread starter barrosinc
- Start date
Eric Group
Masterpiece
Well sure, they grow from seed... The problem is- unless buying correctly labeled/ verified seeds from a reputable grower- you never really know what you will get- especially if seeds are collected from the wild. If you have say an Arakawa going to seed who sits next to a Deshojo, they likely may have cross pollinated creating a variation that winds up somewhere between the two. Sounds cool right? An Arakawa with tiny dark red leaves! What could be more perfect!?! Except it might wind up being Deshojo bark and Arakawa leaves instead... Or the bark may only get "corky" sporadically... OR, maybe you hit the genetic jackpot and get 100% Arakawa?
In the end if you want a specific type of Maple, go cut a branch off and try to root it, or do an air layer... You are a lot more likely (as in 100%) to get the exact tree you want! Plus, it will be a lot farther along in development, growth... Than a seed would- especially if you layer a nice, thick piece of the tree off! Go for a branch an inch or two thick or more if you are going to layer- why not? If it takes, you are well on your way to a very nice tree! Cuttings of that size are possible as well, but cuttings are not going to yield nearly the success rate of layers of course.
Personally I have selected ALL OF THE ABOVE! Currently in my yard I have three pots full of cuttings from Arakawa and Coral Bark Maples from a freind's yard, multiple seeds planted from a different Maple collected in the same yard- a couple just popped up like 2 weeks ago (who knows what they will grow up to look like?) and a layer I just separated from one of my trees a couple weeks ago- it was on there all last year, and through the winter. Just would NOT root for me on one side, but the roots it did make are apparently sufficient to support the tree, so I put it in it's own pot and will let it grow for a year. If it never throws roots on the other side, I will have to graft some over there. I have a couple small cutting from last year too, but it seems only the largest of them REALLY made it. Some others made roots, but have not leafed out for me... Makes me think they never will.
You can go my route if you like, just to eliminate any chance you will not wind up with some trees... But chances are you- like me- will wind up with a BUNCH of Maples... Not a real bad thing IMO...
In the end if you want a specific type of Maple, go cut a branch off and try to root it, or do an air layer... You are a lot more likely (as in 100%) to get the exact tree you want! Plus, it will be a lot farther along in development, growth... Than a seed would- especially if you layer a nice, thick piece of the tree off! Go for a branch an inch or two thick or more if you are going to layer- why not? If it takes, you are well on your way to a very nice tree! Cuttings of that size are possible as well, but cuttings are not going to yield nearly the success rate of layers of course.
Personally I have selected ALL OF THE ABOVE! Currently in my yard I have three pots full of cuttings from Arakawa and Coral Bark Maples from a freind's yard, multiple seeds planted from a different Maple collected in the same yard- a couple just popped up like 2 weeks ago (who knows what they will grow up to look like?) and a layer I just separated from one of my trees a couple weeks ago- it was on there all last year, and through the winter. Just would NOT root for me on one side, but the roots it did make are apparently sufficient to support the tree, so I put it in it's own pot and will let it grow for a year. If it never throws roots on the other side, I will have to graft some over there. I have a couple small cutting from last year too, but it seems only the largest of them REALLY made it. Some others made roots, but have not leafed out for me... Makes me think they never will.
You can go my route if you like, just to eliminate any chance you will not wind up with some trees... But chances are you- like me- will wind up with a BUNCH of Maples... Not a real bad thing IMO...
small trees
Chumono
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^ seeds from parent trees are most often not true to the parent. A seed from a chishio improved probably won't look anything like the parent tree. Not sure if that is what you were getting at withcross pollenation, but buying seeds of a cultivar from anyone and expecting traits of the cultivar is not a good idea.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
I once grew a batch of Japanese Red Maples (Atropurpurum) from seed. I grew 125 trees and not one of them was identical or even close to a grafted Atropurpurum I own, or to each other. I got some really interesting trees out of the batch, sold all of them but two and it was a lot of fun. The point is; it is almost impossible to get an identical tree when grown from seed, that is why most "Cultivars" are grafted. It is the only way to reproduce an identical tree. Actually; the word Cultivar means cultivated by the hand of man.
barrosinc
Masterpiece
the problem is I live in Chile and I don't know where to get some of these varieties. I am going to see how to import some varieties.
barrosinc
Masterpiece
I am trying to find out how to import some trees... a friend travels a lot and can bring them by hand once I get all the certifications.
barrosinc
Masterpiece
So maple trees need to be stuck in quarantine for 2 flowering seasons, so over 2 years! And I have to pay for greenhouse and care.
So I only had the option of getting seeds and mostly off ebay as they most people don't ship to Chile because of some regulation, so even if they don't look exactly the same... the varieties I got are as good as it gets...
Acer palmatum atropurpureum
AP atropurpureum dissectum
AP sango kaku
Prunus serrulata (cherry blossom)
added up to the trident and regular palmatums I have and will use to learn while these other grow in the ground for some years.
And at the house I bought there is a 30year old bougainvillia that I will air layer in some parts.
So I only had the option of getting seeds and mostly off ebay as they most people don't ship to Chile because of some regulation, so even if they don't look exactly the same... the varieties I got are as good as it gets...
Acer palmatum atropurpureum
AP atropurpureum dissectum
AP sango kaku
Prunus serrulata (cherry blossom)
added up to the trident and regular palmatums I have and will use to learn while these other grow in the ground for some years.
And at the house I bought there is a 30year old bougainvillia that I will air layer in some parts.
barrosinc
Masterpiece
so I bought the seeds and will give them a try. How long does it take to recognize a variety? I guess it takes a long time to get an arakawa recognized...
Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
I would avoid the bloodgood variety. They have large internodes and leaves. There are much better varieties than bloodgood for bonsai.
barrosinc
Masterpiece
I heard arakawa drops lots of seeds. I hope to find some of those
barrosinc
Masterpiece
so Aceraceae family will not pass customs, not even with quarantine.
Hoping to get something similar to arakawa, sango kaku and some others from seeds. I stuck tons of varieties in the fridge from different vendors just to try.
Fingers crossed!
RKatzin
Omono
I found this web site- www.patagoniaplants.com. Maybe some help to you.
barrosinc
Masterpiece
Thanks RKatzin, I will take a look, allthoug I think they just have atropurpureum and regular palmatums.
papymandarin
Shohin
that's normal because they are the ones that can be multiply by seed
for others you can have seeds FROM sangokaku or arakawa or "variety name" individuals, but these seeds will NOT give seedlings true to parent. A fraction of them may display one or more characteristics of the parent variety but they will never BE of the given variety because they are from sexual reproduction, which imply genetic mixing, so even if they look more or less like the parent they will never be the variety itself. A variety is a particular genotype and can ony be propagated vegetatively to be true to the variety and retain it's name.
someone selling you "sangokaku or deshojo seeds" is just not honest making you believe you will have the variety from these seeds
for others you can have seeds FROM sangokaku or arakawa or "variety name" individuals, but these seeds will NOT give seedlings true to parent. A fraction of them may display one or more characteristics of the parent variety but they will never BE of the given variety because they are from sexual reproduction, which imply genetic mixing, so even if they look more or less like the parent they will never be the variety itself. A variety is a particular genotype and can ony be propagated vegetatively to be true to the variety and retain it's name.
someone selling you "sangokaku or deshojo seeds" is just not honest making you believe you will have the variety from these seeds
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barrosinc
Masterpiece
As lame as it sounds... it is the only way to get something similar in Chile.
I will plant tons of seeds and hopefully something is very similar to its parent tree.
Las night I dreamt of having a 1m awesome coral bark bonsai that my daughter dropped and it turned into smoke like magic... LOL... I have turned into a bonsai nut without even noticing.
I will plant tons of seeds and hopefully something is very similar to its parent tree.
Las night I dreamt of having a 1m awesome coral bark bonsai that my daughter dropped and it turned into smoke like magic... LOL... I have turned into a bonsai nut without even noticing.
barrosinc
Masterpiece
Shipping these as contraband ends up in a minimum 20.000USD fine.
MidMichBonsai
Shohin
Hence the name of the forum. We all are a little crazy but that is why we love the art form. It's a perfect place for people to exercise the craziness in an "acceptable environment" without being judged by the rest of the "normal" people who don't understand us. 
RKatzin
Omono
As is common, you've likely been a nut all along and bonsai is just bringing out your inner self. Birds of a feather tend to flock together and here we all are. Man, that's some deep doodoo!
You know, it just chaps my ass what with all the blackmarket trade passing unchecked across our borders doing bizzyness per usual, but you what a nice tree, and you're an upstanding citizen, you're screwed with a capital F!
That's my rant for the day, just had to get that out of my system. LOL Anything from that patagonia site?
You know, it just chaps my ass what with all the blackmarket trade passing unchecked across our borders doing bizzyness per usual, but you what a nice tree, and you're an upstanding citizen, you're screwed with a capital F!
That's my rant for the day, just had to get that out of my system. LOL Anything from that patagonia site?
barrosinc
Masterpiece
how could I recognize a deshojo in summer? what differences does it have from a regular A.Palmatum?
Txhorticulture
Chumono
seeds from a cultivar
seeds from a cultivar generally make nice plants. There are no ugly japanese maples. But you cannot call a bloodgood seedling bloodgood because it is a clonal cultivar which must be propagated asexually. But who cares, like i said it wont be an ugly plant.
seeds from a cultivar generally make nice plants. There are no ugly japanese maples. But you cannot call a bloodgood seedling bloodgood because it is a clonal cultivar which must be propagated asexually. But who cares, like i said it wont be an ugly plant.
