JoeR
Masterpiece
Well I see now that anger is coming through and how this will end, so I will no longer participate in an endless gassing of flames.
I will leave this here.
I will leave this here.
Donald Trump.
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coh
Imperial Masterpiece
There is a lot more evidence supporting the theory of evolution than there is supporting the existence of any god. Actually, there is zero evidence supporting the existence of god, unless you count story books written and selectively edited by humans hundreds/thousands of years ago as evidence.
ianb
Shohin
I don't think it's anger so much as incredulity on the behalf of Leatherback. You see he is from Europe and these arguments were put to bed decades ago there - so it's a little shocking for him to see that people actually believe the literal bible stuff in this day and age. They also aren't exposed to alot of the propaganda we see in the USA (looking at you Fox "news") as there are some truth in advertising laws.
fredman
Masterpiece
The problem isn't with religion...never was. The problem is with mankind...always has been 
LanceMac10
Imperial Masterpiece
Most people suck. It doesn't matter what they wrap themselves in. Killers kill because they are killers. Don't base your opinion on religious people or agnostics because of some random crackpot you ran into.
Evolution? Creationism? Who cares! I'm here for 80 years tops, why waste time questioning?
Climate change? Earth's climate has changed several times over..I don't know...but over the million and millions of years the Earth has existed, I would suspect it is pretty numerous.
Stop driving your car then, and heating your house, using your computer, IPhone...should I go on?
End this thread and post some f'n trees.
Evolution? Creationism? Who cares! I'm here for 80 years tops, why waste time questioning?
Climate change? Earth's climate has changed several times over..I don't know...but over the million and millions of years the Earth has existed, I would suspect it is pretty numerous.
Stop driving your car then, and heating your house, using your computer, IPhone...should I go on?
End this thread and post some f'n trees.
fredman
Masterpiece
LanceMac10
Imperial Masterpiece
Touche! I'll take this all day as opposed to trying to figure out the mysteries of the universe!?!?
michaelj
Chumono
How does that matter?
The Bible is filled with scientific errors, from the order of creation to hares and rock badgers chewing cud, to bats being birds, to mustard seeds being the smallest, to the descriptions of the Earth and descriptions of the cause of disease, there are many.
The one I hate most, which isn't so much science as it is simple absurdity, is the idea put forth in Romans 13:1 about kings being ordained by God. That justified more corruption and oppression and death for more centuries than anything I can think of in any religion's scriptures. And evolution is a "
theory", but I've never heard any refutation of it that was even remotely plausible.
According to Romans 13:1, Obama is president because God willed it to be so.
Unless it's because you see no flaws in my opinion, you should try.
They've been saying that about Revelation for almost 2000 years. But I find Revelation to be madness. Its predictions failed (particularly true because it said its prophecy's time was near - Revelation 1:3 - and the people to whom it was written have been dead for centuries), and it should have been discarded as heresy. John's rantings in Revelation conflict powerfully with many teachings of Jesus in the the Gospels. Literally everything about it conflicts with Christ's teachings in Matthew 6:25-34. And try to reconcile Revelation 20:13 with the Gospels of John and Matthew, which teach that we are saved through Christ's death and resurrection, and none comes to the Father except through Jesus, and that it is through faith in Christ that we are saved. John says none of that matters. All are to be judged according to their deeds. Not that I think the latter is particularly unjust, it's just that it conflicts with the rest of the New Testament.
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
Doesn't matter anymore, the other side has disengaged...as they always do when the questions get real.
I'm convinced that you can find support for just about any position you want to take in the bible.
I'm convinced that you can find support for just about any position you want to take in the bible.
Zach Smith
Omono
I think you can prove the existence of God the same way you prove the existence of thought - which we all know exists but whose existence can only be inferred since you can't measure thought as it has no weight or size and makes no sound or smell and can't be described mathematically. Here's one of my favorite proofs of God's existence:
Either God created life or it arose spontaneously from dead matter. If life arose spontaneously from dead matter, then when did it stop arising spontaneously and why? The earth obviously has the right conditions for supporting life, so why would life stop springing up out of the abundant raw materials we have around us? (Darwin had no idea how life began, so he basically ignored that question since he couldn't get anywhere close to an answer.)
Tackling the question of life from the standpoint of organic chemistry:
The existence of life is absolutely dependent on the synthesis of exclusively L-amino acids (vs a mixture with R-amino acids, which are not supportive of life).
The only known source of exclusively L-amino acids in the physical universe is living organisms, which cannot live without them.
Therefore the living organism and L-amino acid synthesis occurred simultaneously in creation.
Therefore the living organism was created.
Therefore there was a creator.
The creator was God.
Evolutionists cannot produce any of the intermediate life-forms that link us back to slime. This is overlooked, of course, since evolutionism (i.e., atheism) has become a powerful state religion which fears and therefore brooks no opposition. State atheism has caused the slaughter of roughly 150,000,000 human beings since the early 1900s. Many more to come.
We all get to believe what we want, of course. Consequences ensue.
Zach
leatherback
The Treedeemer
How was god created? Your reasoning just moves the problem of how life and/or awereness was created to another location.
Because you cannot explain the start of live, you create an entity which has created it, and reason that that entity has 'always been there'. Very logical.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
If God exists....
Satan is winning!
Sorce
Zach Smith
Omono
God is without beginning or ending. You don't have to believe. To rephrase my earlier post, life arose either naturally or supernaturally. Offer a cogent proof for either case. I'm going with the supernatural, i.e. faith in God, as all other possibilities cannot be substantiated (if any could be, some scientist would create life from dead matter in a repeatable process and you'd hear it on CNN 24/7).
Sorce, Satan is winning - right up until it's over for him. It doesn't take much Bible reading to get that.
Zach
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
For the record.....I'm not trying to lose any good relations over this silly argument.
But.....that is kind of the point then.....
That kind of states that it is ok to break every commandment for now.....because he is winning.
Sounds like a Cubs approach to baseball....
We're losing.....so give up!
What about fighting for good everyday.
Loving your brother everyday.
Not accepting loss all the time.
Sorce
JoeR
Masterpiece
Who created the first proteins to form life? Where are all of the model organisms for evolution? The matter for what ever you believe started everything? Do you not just move the problem to a new location?
If we knew everything there is to know (including how 'God was created' (?) and how everything works) would we not all be gods ourselves? And couldnt we then make our own life forms and disregard God altogether to become gods? Why would he want to do that?
God is constant. Always has been, always will be. He created time, along with the universe we live in. Time is not the same where he resides as where we reside. If we could comprehend it, it would be a similar situation as above.
The reason that satan is winning, or that there is even evil to begin with, is because God gave us free will. We can choose between good and evil, and satan prevails because we as human beings often decide to choose the path that ends in hurt instead of doing as the scripture commands and loving everyone regardless.
I try to fight for good and love everyday. Again I often fail, but the key part here is trying.
I just woke up and started typing this while tires so it may not make sense... I will revise it later if nees be.
Zach Smith
Omono
No, don't want to lose any good relations, just trying to present my case (my witness, if you will) and have a reasonable discussion. When you get into Scripture you are told (and we already know it by being alive) that man is fundamentally sinful. Nowhere does it say that it's okay to sin, just that you're almost certainly going to. That was the point of Christ's time on earth, to provide cleansing of sins for those who would believe in Him. He never said it was okay to sin because Satan has been allowed much power here on earth. In fact, He gave two basic commandments: love God with all you heart and mind and strength, and love you neighbor as yourself. We fight for good everyday; it's usually a tough battle, getting tougher as time goes on. But it's the only way to even come close to having a moral existence for humanity. Remember what Dostoevsky said (paraphrasing): If there is no God, then everything is permissible. And that's exactly what we see played out daily. Man has a horrible record at establishing moral codes.
Zach
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Just because we can't yet explain all the steps along the way, or how life first developed, or how the universe formed, doesn't mean I have to invoke the presence of a "god without beginning or end". I have no problem just admitting "we don't know...yet". That makes more sense to me than the existence of a biblical god.
As for why life isn't still spontaneously arising from dead matter - who says it isn't? We are still discovering new things all the time. It could be happening deep in the oceans somewhere. Or, possibly, the conditions required for that to occur no longer exist on the earth.
Anyway, I don't really care what anyone believes, as long as their beliefs don't impact me or others in a negative way. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way.
As for why life isn't still spontaneously arising from dead matter - who says it isn't? We are still discovering new things all the time. It could be happening deep in the oceans somewhere. Or, possibly, the conditions required for that to occur no longer exist on the earth.
Anyway, I don't really care what anyone believes, as long as their beliefs don't impact me or others in a negative way. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way.
Zach Smith
Omono
Live and let live. Amen.
BTW, the oceans are not the place for life to arise spontaneously. All life requires proteins. Proteins are produced by condensation reactions putting amino acids together. You can't push that one uphill due to Le Chatlier's principle (basically one of the Laws of the Universe, if you will). That's why they've struggled to find alien life and asteroids that brought life here and all kinds of other silly things. All in order to escape having to have any moral code, in my opinion.
Zach
Tentakelaertje
Omono
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller–Urey_experiment
Not saying the creation of life started this way, nor saying there's an almighty entity who gave us life, but there sure is a chance the similarities in spaghetti and dna are not accidental.
Now we know we don't know, how about we stop boring each other to death with religion/politics and go fiddle with our sticks?
In pots!
Not saying the creation of life started this way, nor saying there's an almighty entity who gave us life, but there sure is a chance the similarities in spaghetti and dna are not accidental.
Now we know we don't know, how about we stop boring each other to death with religion/politics and go fiddle with our sticks?
In pots!
michaelj
Chumono
That would be a pretty wild change in the definition of God.
We like to think that, but I see massive differences between the God of the OT and the God of the NT.
Why would you assume that people who seek this information want to escape having a moral code? What if I told you that the Vatican has a massive team of scientists trying desperately to find evidence of the origins of life, as well as looking for evidence of life outside our planet? Moreover, most atheists and agnostics have a moral code, and aside from worship and sexual chastity, it's pretty close to the moral codes of religious people.
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