Dwarf Alberta spruce advice

[Rod]

I would like some advice on what to do next. Please The pic with wire in pot is the front. Thanks

 

[coltranem]

I presume you just reduced the tree. Let it recover. You might want to consider a more consistent branch movement in the future.There are branches at the top where the right goes down then up and the left goes up then down. It is good that the movement isn't exactly the same but in this case it is too much of the opposite. Sort gives a sinusoidal feel.

Are you making a lower trunk? It looks like you wired one lower branch up?

 

[Rod]

I presume you just reduced the tree. Let it recover. You might want to consider a more consistent branch movement in the future.There are branches at the top where the right goes down then up and the left goes up then down. It is good that the movement isn't exactly the same but in this case it is too much of the opposite. Sort gives a sinusoidal feel.

Are you making a lower trunk? It looks like you wired one lower branch up?

It’s been in this pot for a year, I did remove about 3/4” of soil from the top to expose more trunk. Maybe that’s why I’m always wanting to adjust branches I’ll work on that. Yes I have two lower branches that I am trying to make trunks out of.

 

[James W.]

At this point it needs to recover and regain strength. Let it rest a couple of years. Don't cut any more off until it is vigorous, shown by growing extensions an inch or more long.
By then you might be able to reduce to your two new trunks.
I have found that right now is a very bad time to wire a DAS, so it may need a lot of TLC.
Keep us posted, please.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

If this tree were mine, I'd let it have the rest of the year to recover. If still green late winter 2024, repot, and again left a season to recover from the repotting.

Spruces tend to be a "one insult per year" sort of tree. If you have experience you can certainly work them more than once a year, but especially if you are new to spruces, once a year is a good "beginner guide".

Timing - in the Midwest, Illinois, Wisconsin, Michigan - the climates I know well, the best time of year to work on spruce is the middle to end of August. I save all my pruning and wiring for the weeks August 15 to Aug 30. I'm close enough to Lake Michigan I can repot in this time window but if you are outside the "Lake Effect" zone, repotting should be done in late winter or early spring. Everything else should be done in middle to end of August. By middle of August the new buds that will grow the next year will have formed, so the timing is good for pruning back to compact the tree. Pruning in spring you can not see where the back buds are, or will form.

General suggestions for spruces work for all species and cultivars of spruce. Or at least almost all. There are a few exceptions.

On to Dwarf Alberta Spruce, DAS, in particular. DAS is a cultivar, propagated from a mutant seedling of the white spruce, Picea glauca. All DAS are considered Picea glauca, but they have some weird quirks. DAS branches keep a perpetually flexible, a juvenile habit that means no mater how many years the branches have been wired, after removing the wire the branches will rise back up, reaching for the sky.

You can just keep wiring and rewiring the tree. Older thicker branches will "calm down" and can be held down with perhaps just a guide wire after a few years of aggressive wiring, but DAS will always have to have wire on it if the branches are not rising up to the sky.

Or you can design the tree taking advantage or design to the natural tendency of DAS to reach for the sky, keeping the rising habit. Work on creating dense pads above the branches as the branches and trunks reach up.

Generally I recommend against buying DAS if you don't already have one.

Picea glauca, the wild form of white spruce is excellent for bonsai, and the Black Hills Spruce, a geographic race of the species is even better for bonsai. Look for Picea glauca densata, the Black Hills Spruce, that is the best of the North American spruces to grow in the Midwest. It tolerates low elevations, high night time heat in summer (well higher than englemann and other mountain spruces) and tolerates low humidity. Species of spruce do not tolerate high night time heat very well, this is why spruce are not found in southern Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, much of Florida and other low elevation, coastal areas.

But for your next spruce, choose Black Hills Spruce. The DAS is fine to learn on as a practice piece, but Black Hills Spruce is just as inexpensive and is MUCH, MUCH better for bonsai. Colorado blue spruce is good for bonsai too, but best for LARGER SCALE bonsai, Blue Spruce are best for trees in the 3 to 5 foot range. There are no absolute rules, try what you want at the size range you want, but these are my suggestions from experience.

Black Hills Spruce works in any size, and wonderful old collected specimens can be had (at a price) from Golden Arrow Bonsai and other collectors.

Most experience growers just don't won't bother with DAS due to its perpetual juvenile habit of branches always springing up and reaching for the sky,.

 

[Rod]

If this tree were mine, I'd let it have the rest of the year to recover. If still green late winter 2024, repot, and again left a season to recover from the repotting.

Spruces tend to be a "one insult per year" sort of tree. If you have experience you can certainly work them more than once a year, but especially if you are new to spruces, once a year is a good "beginner guide".

Timing - in the Midwest, Illinois, Wisconsin, Michigan - the climates I know well, the best time of year to work on spruce is the middle to end of August. I save all my pruning and wiring for the weeks August 15 to Aug 30. I'm close enough to Lake Michigan I can repot in this time window but if you are outside the "Lake Effect" zone, repotting should be done in late winter or early spring. Everything else should be done in middle to end of August. By middle of August the new buds that will grow the next year will have formed, so the timing is good for pruning back to compact the tree. Pruning in spring you can not see where the back buds are, or will form.

General suggestions for spruces work for all species and cultivars of spruce. Or at least almost all. There are a few exceptions.

On to Dwarf Alberta Spruce, DAS, in particular. DAS is a cultivar, propagated from a mutant seedling of the white spruce, Picea glauca. All DAS are considered Picea glauca, but they have some weird quirks. DAS branches keep a perpetually flexible, a juvenile habit that means no mater how many years the branches have been wired, after removing the wire the branches will rise back up, reaching for the sky.

You can just keep wiring and rewiring the tree. Older thicker branches will "calm down" and can be held down with perhaps just a guide wire after a few years of aggressive wiring, but DAS will always have to have wire on it if the branches are not rising up to the sky.

Or you can design the tree taking advantage or design to the natural tendency of DAS to reach for the sky, keeping the rising habit. Work on creating dense pads above the branches as the branches and trunks reach up.

Generally I recommend against buying DAS if you don't already have one.

Picea glauca, the wild form of white spruce is excellent for bonsai, and the Black Hills Spruce, a geographic race of the species is even better for bonsai. Look for Picea glauca densata, the Black Hills Spruce, that is the best of the North American spruces to grow in the Midwest. It tolerates low elevations, high night time heat in summer (well higher than englemann and other mountain spruces) and tolerates low humidity. Species of spruce do not tolerate high night time heat very well, this is why spruce are not found in southern Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, much of Florida and other low elevation, coastal areas.

But for your next spruce, choose Black Hills Spruce. The DAS is fine to learn on as a practice piece, but Black Hills Spruce is just as inexpensive and is MUCH, MUCH better for bonsai. Colorado blue spruce is good for bonsai too, but best for LARGER SCALE bonsai, Blue Spruce are best for trees in the 3 to 5 foot range. There are no absolute rules, try what you want at the size range you want, but these are my suggestions from experience.

Black Hills Spruce works in any size, and wonderful old collected specimens can be had (at a price) from Golden Arrow Bonsai and other collectors.

Most experience growers just don't won't bother with DAS due to its perpetual juvenile habit of branches always springing up and reaching for the sky,.

I’ve heard that DAS are very frustrating but a good cheap tree to learn on. I got 6 for 45.00 planted 5 in my landscape and figured I’d play with this one. It’s been in this pot and shaped Sence last year and is budding fairly well. I’ll keep my eye out for a black hills spruce. Thanks

 

[Cream_city_bonsai414]

If this tree were mine, I'd let it have the rest of the year to recover. If still green late winter 2024, repot, and again left a season to recover from the repotting.

Spruces tend to be a "one insult per year" sort of tree. If you have experience you can certainly work them more than once a year, but especially if you are new to spruces, once a year is a good "beginner guide".

Timing - in the Midwest, Illinois, Wisconsin, Michigan - the climates I know well, the best time of year to work on spruce is the middle to end of August. I save all my pruning and wiring for the weeks August 15 to Aug 30. I'm close enough to Lake Michigan I can repot in this time window but if you are outside the "Lake Effect" zone, repotting should be done in late winter or early spring. Everything else should be done in middle to end of August. By middle of August the new buds that will grow the next year will have formed, so the timing is good for pruning back to compact the tree. Pruning in spring you can not see where the back buds are, or will form.

General suggestions for spruces work for all species and cultivars of spruce. Or at least almost all. There are a few exceptions.

On to Dwarf Alberta Spruce, DAS, in particular. DAS is a cultivar, propagated from a mutant seedling of the white spruce, Picea glauca. All DAS are considered Picea glauca, but they have some weird quirks. DAS branches keep a perpetually flexible, a juvenile habit that means no mater how many years the branches have been wired, after removing the wire the branches will rise back up, reaching for the sky.

You can just keep wiring and rewiring the tree. Older thicker branches will "calm down" and can be held down with perhaps just a guide wire after a few years of aggressive wiring, but DAS will always have to have wire on it if the branches are not rising up to the sky.

Or you can design the tree taking advantage or design to the natural tendency of DAS to reach for the sky, keeping the rising habit. Work on creating dense pads above the branches as the branches and trunks reach up.

Generally I recommend against buying DAS if you don't already have one.

Picea glauca, the wild form of white spruce is excellent for bonsai, and the Black Hills Spruce, a geographic race of the species is even better for bonsai. Look for Picea glauca densata, the Black Hills Spruce, that is the best of the North American spruces to grow in the Midwest. It tolerates low elevations, high night time heat in summer (well higher than englemann and other mountain spruces) and tolerates low humidity. Species of spruce do not tolerate high night time heat very well, this is why spruce are not found in southern Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, much of Florida and other low elevation, coastal areas.

But for your next spruce, choose Black Hills Spruce. The DAS is fine to learn on as a practice piece, but Black Hills Spruce is just as inexpensive and is MUCH, MUCH better for bonsai. Colorado blue spruce is good for bonsai too, but best for LARGER SCALE bonsai, Blue Spruce are best for trees in the 3 to 5 foot range. There are no absolute rules, try what you want at the size range you want, but these are my suggestions from experience.

Black Hills Spruce works in any size, and wonderful old collected specimens can be had (at a price) from Golden Arrow Bonsai and other collectors.

Most experience growers just don't won't bother with DAS due to its perpetual juvenile habit of branches always springing up and reaching for the sky,.

This is one of the better information I’ve found about this. I’m in Milwaukee wi and newish to spruce specifically Alberta my question is I would like to do a radical bend to mine which means I’m going to have to spilt the trunk when is the best time of year to do this? Thanks in advance!

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

August 15 to August 30,
really

Also late winter may work,
but I would try the August time period.

 

[Wulfskaar]

Timing - in the Midwest, Illinois, Wisconsin, Michigan - the climates I know well, the best time of year to work on spruce is the middle to end of August. I save all my pruning and wiring for the weeks August 15 to Aug 30. I'm close enough to Lake Michigan I can repot in this time window but if you are outside the "Lake Effect" zone, repotting should be done in late winter or early spring. Everything else should be done in middle to end of August. By middle of August the new buds that will grow the next year will have formed, so the timing is good for pruning back to compact the tree. Pruning in spring you can not see where the back buds are, or will form.

Jeez, I'm glad I read this! That time is right now! Buds have formed. Would you guess that this timeframe also applies here on the west coast?

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I suppose it does. Though I don't know, I've never grown anything in California. I don't think the timing would vary much, Key is you will be able to see dormant buds in the middle of the current years new growth. If you can't see dormant buds, wait another month or two. You need to be able to see dormant buds so that you can cut the length of the current year's new growth to half or less while pruning the tree. Just cutting a branch in the middle will leave you brown and dead tips and such that need to be cleaned up in spring. Cut back to a dormant bud, you get nice healing and no need to go back and clean up.

Actually I'm surprised Picea glauca survives the heat and warm winters in California. I visited Phelan, CA outside of Los Angeles, then went north to Yosemite and Kings Canyon, for finishing in Las Vegas Nevada. Desert is nothing like the cool damp forests of northern Wisconsin, UP Michigan and Canada, that Picea glauca comes from. Think nearly as wet as a Olympic rainforest but with 3 feet of snow for 4 to 5 months of the year.

Picea glauca is adaptable, and it does fine in much more temperate settings, so if it grows for you - great.

In California the Black Hills spruce might have a better chance at long term survival. Picea glauca densata comes from a drier and hotter summer location than the white spruce form of the species. It tolerates low humidity better.

But just like you can not grow apples in southern Florida, because the winters are too warm. Without the cold, apples don't set flowers. You won't get fruit. Got to be north of Orlando to grow apples.

I don't know if your part of California is too warm for spruce or not. I suppose if it is sold for landscape use, you get enough cold for it to survive.

 

[Wulfskaar]

I suppose it does. Though I don't know, I've never grown anything in California. I don't think the timing would vary much, Key is you will be able to see dormant buds in the middle of the current years new growth. If you can't see dormant buds, wait another month or two. You need to be able to see dormant buds so that you can cut the length of the current year's new growth to half or less while pruning the tree. Just cutting a branch in the middle will leave you brown and dead tips and such that need to be cleaned up in spring. Cut back to a dormant bud, you get nice healing and no need to go back and clean up.

Actually I'm surprised Picea glauca survives the heat and warm winters in California. I visited Phelan, CA outside of Los Angeles, then went north to Yosemite and Kings Canyon, for finishing in Las Vegas Nevada. Desert is nothing like the cool damp forests of northern Wisconsin, UP Michigan and Canada, that Picea glauca comes from. Think nearly as wet as a Olympic rainforest but with 3 feet of snow for 4 to 5 months of the year.

Picea glauca is adaptable, and it does fine in much more temperate settings, so if it grows for you - great.

In California the Black Hills spruce might have a better chance at long term survival. Picea glauca densata comes from a drier and hotter summer location than the white spruce form of the species. It tolerates low humidity better.

But just like you can not grow apples in southern Florida, because the winters are too warm. Without the cold, apples don't set flowers. You won't get fruit. Got to be north of Orlando to grow apples.

I don't know if your part of California is too warm for spruce or not. I suppose if it is sold for landscape use, you get enough cold for it to survive.

I've had another small one for 4 years and it still puts out spring growth, so I'm pretty sure they work here. I am right on the coast, so temps here are generally 10 degrees F cooler than in the valleys.

The weather here:
Spring: 60s-70s
Summer: 70s-80s
Fall: 70s-100s
Winter: 50s-60s (some rain)

Basically, very little variation except in fall when the wind reverses from onshore to offshore, bringing hot, dry air from the high desert (fire season).

Are the buds in my pic above dormant buds? Or do they looks smaller?

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I've had another small one for 4 years and it still puts out spring growth, so I'm pretty sure they work here. I am right on the coast, so temps here are generally 10 degrees F cooler than in the valleys.

The weather here:
Spring: 60s-70s
Summer: 70s-80s
Fall: 70s-100s
Winter: 50s-60s (some rain)

Basically, very little variation except in fall when the wind reverses from onshore to offshore, bringing hot, dry air from the high desert (fire season).

Are the buds in my pic above dormant buds? Or do they looks smaller?

Those are terminal buds, this time of year, they should be dormant. the buds I prune back to are the adventitious buds that occur behind these terminal buds. Each year adds a segment of new growth, at the end, terminal end, there is a cluster of new buds, If you trace the branch back, you see a cluster of buds at the base of this years growth, these were formed the previous year, and further back, you can see the 2 years previous cluster of buds. In between current year terminal buds and previous years buds there are the more difficult to see and more sparsely occurring adventitious buds. Depending on what your styling plans require, you normally prune back to the adventitious buds for allowing some growth, Not at all to allow maximum growth, or to previous year's terminal buds to shorten the branch. Terminal buds are only reliably viable for 3 years, so pruning a spruce back further than that can leave you with a dead branch.