Enkianthus perulatus AKA Doudan Tsutsuji. Root pune and trunk chop advice.

Hanandokita

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A while ago I started a thread about advice, didn't get much traffic, so I decided to start a new thread. I bought This Doudan at a nursery.





Despite having a good amount of bonsai at the nursery and a large selection of trees and plants, the guy couldn't really give me any advice. First Doudan isn't really popular for bonsai and he said that Japanese aren't really doing as much bonsai anymore and is more popular overseas. He wanted me to tell him how it goes.

Anyway my question is should a root prune and trunk chop at the same time? If not which should I do first? Wait to do the other next season? If I trunk chop, any advice where? Maybe other styling advice?
 

0soyoung

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I suggest you treat it just like you would and azalea.

To your specific question,
should a root prune and trunk chop at the same time?
I think you can prune hard and root prune immediately after it blooms (if your specimen is not going to bloom, watch other enkianthus near you to get the timing).
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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My understanding (yes, internet "knowledge" not real life experience), that it is an ericaceous plant, meaning it is related to blueberries and azaleas. This means it is a calcifuge, it dislikes excess calcium in its soil or irrigation water. This means much of North America it does not grow well in the landscape. But in areas where the landscape soils are favorable for azalea, it can be grown. Internet says it is very cold hardy, through USDA zone 5. which means to about -28 C or -20 F. Fruit is supposed to be edible.

If it were mine I would plant it in either 100% Kanuma, or if in a nursery pot, a blend of composted bark and Canadian peat moss. Or composted bark (at least 30 to 40% bark, pumice and peat moss.

As to pruning, you have too many branches off your trunk I would eliminate all but maybe 5, and cut "keepers" to a length that is about 2/3rd the distance from the soil to the first branch in length, the largest diameter of the branches should be the longest, the smaller diameter should be significantly shorter than the 2/3 the distance from the soil to the first branch.

This pruning advice is in the absence of you seeing a better plan. If inspiration strikes, go for it.
 

Hanandokita

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I suggest you treat it just like you would and azalea.

To your specific question,

I think you can prune hard and root prune immediately after it blooms (if your specimen is not going to bloom, watch other enkianthus near you to get the timing).
Hey thanks for the help again. Seems like you're the only one that has experience with these. Plans changed so wasn't sure on how to proceed.
 

Hanandokita

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My understanding (yes, internet "knowledge" not real life experience), that it is an ericaceous plant, meaning it is related to blueberries and azaleas. This means it is a calcifuge, it dislikes excess calcium in its soil or irrigation water. This means much of North America it does not grow well in the landscape. But in areas where the landscape soils are favorable for azalea, it can be grown. Internet says it is very cold hardy, through USDA zone 5. which means to about -28 C or -20 F. Fruit is supposed to be edible.

If it were mine I would plant it in either 100% Kanuma, or if in a nursery pot, a blend of composted bark and Canadian peat moss. Or composted bark (at least 30 to 40% bark, pumice and peat moss.

As to pruning, you have too many branches off your trunk I would eliminate all but maybe 5, and cut "keepers" to a length that is about 2/3rd the distance from the soil to the first branch in length, the largest diameter of the branches should be the longest, the smaller diameter should be significantly shorter than the 2/3 the distance from the soil to the first branch.

This pruning advice is in the absence of you seeing a better plan. If inspiration strikes, go for it.
I think the one pictured I'm gonna let it grow out to get the trunk a little fatter and I agree that it's really crowded on the top, but if I'm going to grow it out should I leave it or still prune it? I'm thinking I should prune it because of reverse taper?
 

sorce

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I think the one pictured I'm gonna let it grow out to get the trunk a little fatter and I agree that it's really crowded on the top, but if I'm going to grow it out should I leave it or still prune it? I'm thinking I should prune it because of reverse taper?

Looks like there is a nice clump of 3 to cut in that lighter pic.
But it's hard to tell if it's actually possible to cut it to there.

Seems getting rid of the look of the natural growth pattern will be difficult without a total restart.

Difficult.

What's the base look like?

Sorce
 

Hanandokita

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Looks like there is a nice clump of 3 to cut in that lighter pic.
But it's hard to tell if it's actually possible to cut it to there.

Seems getting rid of the look of the natural growth pattern will be difficult without a total restart.

Difficult.

What's the base look like?

Sorce
That's why I'm thinking of just letting it grow to get the trunk thicker. Now I'm thinking more of maintenance pruning so that there is enough to let t get bigger. I'm not sure where or how much to cut off. The middle?
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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The first task I would do, which is more important than worrying about style or pruning. Get that tree out of the ball and burlap and repotted either into a grow out container, a raised bed where it is easy to get down to look at, or least easy place to work on it, get it planted in the ground. For a grow out container, I would look for or build a container (we build wooden boxes here) that holds more potting material than the current root ball inside the burlap. Since most standard production bonsai pots are 10 cm or less in depth, the grow out container should be shallow, no more than 12.5 cm in depth, and wide enough to hold more media than the current burlap ball. I use heavy plastic trays, called Anderson flats, that have a plastic mesh bottom that holds medium and coarse grades of bonsai soil, allowing air, water and fine particles to escape. They are roughly 50 x 50 x 13 cm in size. They hold about 12 to 16 liters of potting media. I would expect you would be able to source or make something the appropriate size. The large container will allow room for growth to thicken the trunk, the shallow depth allows you to begin to train the root system and nebari for the future bonsai pot. Prune off downward growing roots, spread the roots out, like the spokes of a wheel. Most members of the blueberry & azalea family have shallow wide spreading root systems, they tend to not have deep tap roots. So this should be fairly easy to do. I would use Kanuma as your potting media. Or an acidic nursery blend. This tree will not tolerate alkaline conditions.

You have 2 options, not do much pruning, just pot it up and get it established. Or get right to work. I would probably just pot it up, let it get established. Let it bloom, see if you like the flavor of the edible fruit. Grow it for a year or two and get familiar with the rhythms of blooming, branch growth, root growth and so on.

I see two options for this tree. Basically, use what you have to make an informal broom style, or chop just below the knot of branches and start over. It is in the blueberry family, I expect if you chop, it will back bud on old wood, but warning, it will probably send up suckers from the roots. If you chop remove any low on the roots suckers immediately as they sprout. The reason is that there is a good chance the root system will abandon the "chopped trunk" in favor of the root suckers from the base. High bush blueberries do this, which is how as a blueberry farmer, I get 50 year old bushes to renew themselves.

My choice would be going for the "informal broom style". In the informal broom, the branches do not all come from exactly the same level in the tree. You have some variation in height as to where these branches start. The branches you would keep are pretty much all on the outside of that cluster. If I were you, I would start by removing branches interior to that cluster branches. Not all at once. Just take off 3 or 4 that are skinny, dead arrow straight, and packed inside, where they never would become one of the continuing lines of the tree. Take out 3 or 4, then step back and re-evaluate the tree. See if there are more that could be removed. The goal would be to get the number of branches of that cluster down to 7, or 5, I probably would not reduce further than 5, as then the number of scars that would need to heal would be too great. As you remove branches from the cluster, try to have the cut scars on the inside of the cluster, to keep a smooth bark on the outside, facing the viewers. Also, if the number or size of the scars gets to be large, stop for the year, allow the wounds to heal a year or two before the next round of reduction. Use the "top jin" cut paste recommended for azalea. Seal the wounds.

As to height. Initially I would be tempted to leave it tall, let it bloom, get familiar with what it naturally does. Then I would take it down by about 1/3rd. You need a large volume of leaves if you want to keep the trunk thickening. Pruning off branches and lowering the height of the bush will work against increasing the diameter of the trunk. So don't get too vigorous pruning right away. You can get more aggressive pruning once the diameter of the trunk is where you want it.

Hope this helps.
 

Hanandokita

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The first task I would do, which is more important than worrying about style or pruning. Get that tree out of the ball and burlap and repotted either into a grow out container, a raised bed where it is easy to get down to look at, or least easy place to work on it, get it planted in the ground. For a grow out container, I would look for or build a container (we build wooden boxes here) that holds more potting material than the current root ball inside the burlap. Since most standard production bonsai pots are 10 cm or less in depth, the grow out container should be shallow, no more than 12.5 cm in depth, and wide enough to hold more media than the current burlap ball. I use heavy plastic trays, called Anderson flats, that have a plastic mesh bottom that holds medium and coarse grades of bonsai soil, allowing air, water and fine particles to escape. They are roughly 50 x 50 x 13 cm in size. They hold about 12 to 16 liters of potting media. I would expect you would be able to source or make something the appropriate size. The large container will allow room for growth to thicken the trunk, the shallow depth allows you to begin to train the root system and nebari for the future bonsai pot. Prune off downward growing roots, spread the roots out, like the spokes of a wheel. Most members of the blueberry & azalea family have shallow wide spreading root systems, they tend to not have deep tap roots. So this should be fairly easy to do. I would use Kanuma as your potting media. Or an acidic nursery blend. This tree will not tolerate alkaline conditions.

You have 2 options, not do much pruning, just pot it up and get it established. Or get right to work. I would probably just pot it up, let it get established. Let it bloom, see if you like the flavor of the edible fruit. Grow it for a year or two and get familiar with the rhythms of blooming, branch growth, root growth and so on.

I see two options for this tree. Basically, use what you have to make an informal broom style, or chop just below the knot of branches and start over. It is in the blueberry family, I expect if you chop, it will back bud on old wood, but warning, it will probably send up suckers from the roots. If you chop remove any low on the roots suckers immediately as they sprout. The reason is that there is a good chance the root system will abandon the "chopped trunk" in favor of the root suckers from the base. High bush blueberries do this, which is how as a blueberry farmer, I get 50 year old bushes to renew themselves.

My choice would be going for the "informal broom style". In the informal broom, the branches do not all come from exactly the same level in the tree. You have some variation in height as to where these branches start. The branches you would keep are pretty much all on the outside of that cluster. If I were you, I would start by removing branches interior to that cluster branches. Not all at once. Just take off 3 or 4 that are skinny, dead arrow straight, and packed inside, where they never would become one of the continuing lines of the tree. Take out 3 or 4, then step back and re-evaluate the tree. See if there are more that could be removed. The goal would be to get the number of branches of that cluster down to 7, or 5, I probably would not reduce further than 5, as then the number of scars that would need to heal would be too great. As you remove branches from the cluster, try to have the cut scars on the inside of the cluster, to keep a smooth bark on the outside, facing the viewers. Also, if the number or size of the scars gets to be large, stop for the year, allow the wounds to heal a year or two before the next round of reduction. Use the "top jin" cut paste recommended for azalea. Seal the wounds.

As to height. Initially I would be tempted to leave it tall, let it bloom, get familiar with what it naturally does. Then I would take it down by about 1/3rd. You need a large volume of leaves if you want to keep the trunk thickening. Pruning off branches and lowering the height of the bush will work against increasing the diameter of the trunk. So don't get too vigorous pruning right away. You can get more aggressive pruning once the diameter of the trunk is where you want it.

Hope this helps.
Great advice. I think I'm going to go with your choice.
To be certain you are saying that If I can get it down to or 7 cluster, there will be enough left on the trunk to get bigger? Should I keep the lowest branch as a sacrifice, picture with the blue lighter? And should I start training the nebari by reducing the rootball as well as up potting it at the same time as pruning back into a larger container, say like a 10 gallon? Or should I start off with the right size for the rootball I end up with pot and up every few years?

Sorry for all the questions? I think I'm in it for the long term since it's native to where I live.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Start with the container. I recommend to NOT USE a conventional nursery container. It will be too deep, you need to reduce the depth of the root ball. If you repot to a deeper container, you are simply delaying the training of the root system. Delay the training of the root system will delay the development as bonsai.

You can use a nursery container if you cut the container down to 15 cm or less in height. In this case take a 10 gallon container cut it down to 4 or 5 inches tall, and plant your tree in that short but wide pot. If the cut down 10 gallon does not hold enough media, get a 20 gallon container, cut it down to 10 to 15 cm and use that. Wide and Shallow is the key. You are preparing the root system for life in a shallow bonsai pot. This takes more time to develop than training the branches to look like a tree.

Yes, if you reduce the number of branches down to 5 or 7 in the cluster, there should be enough left to continue thickening the trunk. Also, yes, keep the lower branch as a "sacrifice branch". Yes start training by reducing the root ball. You need to "flatten out the roots", you want to create or grow a radial root system, where the roots spread out, rather than go straight down.
 

Hanandokita

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Start with the container. I recommend to NOT USE a conventional nursery container. It will be too deep, you need to reduce the depth of the root ball. If you repot to a deeper container, you are simply delaying the training of the root system. Delay the training of the root system will delay the development as bonsai.

You can use a nursery container if you cut the container down to 15 cm or less in height. In this case take a 10 gallon container cut it down to 4 or 5 inches tall, and plant your tree in that short but wide pot. If the cut down 10 gallon does not hold enough media, get a 20 gallon container, cut it down to 10 to 15 cm and use that. Wide and Shallow is the key. You are preparing the root system for life in a shallow bonsai pot. This takes more time to develop than training the branches to look like a tree.

Yes, if you reduce the number of branches down to 5 or 7 in the cluster, there should be enough left to continue thickening the trunk. Also, yes, keep the lower branch as a "sacrifice branch". Yes start training by reducing the root ball. You need to "flatten out the roots", you want to create or grow a radial root system, where the roots spread out, rather than go straight down.
Last question I hope. osoyoung recommends to wait until full bloom to do any work and you say to get it out of the burlap sack ASAP, I was thinking to work on the roots now and then cut out branches that I don't need after bloom?

I'm gonna go out today to buy sphagnum moss, kanuma, and a couple shallow pots. Are shallow terracotta pots any good?
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Terra cotta is fine, as long as you are able to water them frequently enough. Terra cotta is porous, and dries out much more quickly than plastic pots of similar sizes. Not an issue if you check to see if they need water daily.

I would definitely get it out of the burlap, and into a pot or container, in the next few days. Don't wait too long.

As to pruning, sure, do the pruning after blooming. No problem.
 

Hanandokita

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Terra cotta is fine, as long as you are able to water them frequently enough. Terra cotta is porous, and dries out much more quickly than plastic pots of similar sizes. Not an issue if you check to see if they need water daily.

I would definitely get it out of the burlap, and into a pot or container, in the next few days. Don't wait too long.

As to pruning, sure, do the pruning after blooming. No problem.
Did it over the weekend. Now the super long wait begins.
 

fudo133

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How did you go with this? Any updates?
I've got quite a few enkianthus in the ground but i'm having trouble with their tendency to sucker/put out epicormic growth
 
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