experiment with stratification JBP

[dirk hoorelbeke]

Inspired by the results of some of the members here with JBP I'm trying to jump on board with these.
Last year I started 60 JBP from seed, stratifying in sphagnum with charcoal for 3 months. Results where poor, only 10 sprouting.

This year I am trying an experiment. From various information on the web we (I) know they do not need stratification but the sprouting is more consistent, so aftercare is more uniform if you do.
group 1a: +- 150 stratified in paper towel (3 months), sowed in akadama
group 1b: +- 150 stratified in paper towel (3 months), sowed in akadama with top layer of sowing soil.
group 2a: +- 75 stratified in sand (3 months), sowed in akadama
group 2b: +- 75 stratified in sand (3 months), sowed in akadama with top layer of sowing soil.
group 3a: +- 75 stratified in paper towel (3 weeks), sowed in akadama
group 3b: +- 75 stratified in paper towel (3 weeks), sowed in akadama with top layer of sowing soil.
group 4a: +- 75 not stratified but soaked for 24 hours, sowed in akadama
group 4b: +- 75 not stratified but soaked for 24 hours, sowed in akadama with top layer of sowing soil.

I planted everything in 1 big flat wooden box to give them equal treatment. Not heated poly (hoop) house.

ps. the goal for me is to know the most efficient way to start some every year.
pps. the meaning is to update this tread over the following year so you and i can learn from this experiment. I will add additional info as well.
ppps. I'm not that good in English so some faults might creep in.

 

[Kimberley82h]

I am just planning to start some black pine seeds myself and have been after advice, I shall be watching this thread good luck !

 

[JoeR]

I'm starting mine today in just sand. After they sprout they will move to proper bonsai soil. I'm making soil of 10% pine bark, 45% lava, 45% pumice.

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

sowed 19 march: daytemp: last weeks between 6 and 10 °C, Nighttemp : last weeks between 0 and 2. In greenhouse temp between 2 and 30°C

results 5 april (17 days):
group 1a: +- 150 stratified in paper towel (3 months), sowed in akadama
36 = 24%
group 1b: +- 150 stratified in paper towel (3 months), sowed in akadama with top layer of sowing soil.
28 = 19%
group 2a: +- 75 stratified in sand (3 months), sowed in akadama
4 = 5%
group 2b: +- 75 stratified in sand (3 months), sowed in akadama with top layer of sowing soil.
4 = 5%
group 3a: +- 75 stratified in paper towel (3 weeks), sowed in akadama
0
group 3b: +- 75 stratified in paper towel (3 weeks), sowed in akadama with top layer of sowing soil.
0
group 4a: +- 75 not stratified but soaked for 24 hours, sowed in akadama
0
group 4b: +- 75 not stratified but soaked for 24 hours, sowed in akadama with top layer of sowing soil.
0

total:
750 seeds, 72 sprouted = 9,6%

 

[JoeR]

Wow those are some low numbers! You maybe haven't given them enough time yet or you got a bad batch possibly.

The sand one worries me, that's what mine are in! I only planted half of them (60) so maybe I should treat the other ones...

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

This is sprouting after just a few weeks (way to early to make conclusions), i'm aiming for germination of 60%+, with one group the stratification was in sand (with a little moisture), these where stratified and sowed at the same time as the paper group. Stratifying in a medium is the thing i want to know if its good or bad since i had low germination last year (10%) when stratifying in sphagnum and charcoal. Growing them in sand would be no problem i guess.

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

results 12 april (24 days):
group 1a: +- 150 stratified in paper towel (3 months), sowed in akadama
66 = 44%
group 1b: +- 150 stratified in paper towel (3 months), sowed in akadama with top layer of sowing soil.
54 = 36%
group 2a: +- 75 stratified in sand (3 months), sowed in akadama
15 = 20%
group 2b: +- 75 stratified in sand (3 months), sowed in akadama with top layer of sowing soil.
16 = 21,33%
group 3a: +- 75 stratified in paper towel (3 weeks), sowed in akadama
0
group 3b: +- 75 stratified in paper towel (3 weeks), sowed in akadama with top layer of sowing soil.
2 = 2,67%
group 4a: +- 75 not stratified but soaked for 24 hours, sowed in akadama
0
group 4b: +- 75 not stratified but soaked for 24 hours, sowed in akadama with top layer of sowing soil.
0
total:
750 seeds, 153 sprouted = 20,4%

Ps. I lost 8 seedlings last week. Snails found the little treasure. The little cows mow them. I use snail pellets, but ... may the force be with me. I count them in because they sprouted and that's what I need to know. Have to find a way of protection for next year.

 

[Eric Group]

Great day! How many Pines are you trying to grow man?

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

Eric, last year I ordered from a different place. For this year i found a place that sells to wholesale, so i got 750 seeds instead of 60 last year for a lower price. Since last year wasn't a real success i thought... why not... to cut back on delivery cost i ordered also Acer Palmatum, Acer Buergerianum, carpinus coreana, zelkova serrata (inspired by cmeg1) Not sure if i will produce every year or every 2 years. The start-up cost isn't that great, but the soil does at the end... we'll see. The ultimate aim is to produce material with superb roots because that is what we all want and it's something you rarely find in (specialized) nurseries.

 

[JoeR]

So mine just keep sprouting but some just randomly die before they get very big, and I'm betting it's because They are too wet. They get Brown from bottom up from rot I am assuming. Is there something I could do to stop this now other than hold back watering a bit or...

 

[0soyoung]

So mine just keep sprouting but some just randomly die before they get very big, and I'm betting it's because They are too wet. They get Brown from bottom up from rot I am assuming. Is there something I could do to stop this now other than hold back watering a bit or...

It could be because of a 'damping off' fungus. Sphagnum reputedly has antifungal properties. I usually sew the seeds on top of the growing medium and top dress with some damp sphagnum (often I chop it up in an old blender with some water and pour the puree/soup on). Normally I use my standard bonsai mix (Turface for me) so that I have good aeration and don't have to worry about 'over watering' and don't have 'another something' I need to buy.

 

[JoeR]

It could be because of a 'damping off' fungus. Sphagnum reputedly has antifungal properties. I usually sew the seeds on top of the growing medium and top dress with some damp sphagnum (often I chop it up in an old blender with some water and pour the puree/soup on). Normally I use my standard bonsai mix (Turface for me) so that I have good aeration and don't have to worry about 'over watering' and don't have 'another something' I need to buy.

I have seen white fungus grow on just wet sphagnum moss, so I'm not sure if that's true or not.

I'm starting a few more tonight like in the '6 pine seeds later' with pumice lava mix on bottom with sand in rows. Maybe it will stay at least a little dried/more aired out.

 

[jeanluc83]

It sounds like they are staying too wet. More air circulation and more sun may help.

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

results 19 april (31 days):
group 1a: +- 150 stratified in paper towel (3 months), sowed in akadama
74 = 49,33%
group 1b: +- 150 stratified in paper towel (3 months), sowed in akadama with top layer of sowing soil.
66 44,00%
group 2a: +- 75 stratified in sand (3 months), sowed in akadama
28 = 37,33%
group 2b: +- 75 stratified in sand (3 months), sowed in akadama with top layer of sowing soil.
23 = 30,67%
group 3a: +- 75 stratified in paper towel (3 weeks), sowed in akadama
15 20,00%
group 3b: +- 75 stratified in paper towel (3 weeks), sowed in akadama with top layer of sowing soil.
13 = 17,33%
group 4a: +- 75 not stratified but soaked for 24 hours, sowed in akadama
11 = 14,67%
group 4b: +- 75 not stratified but soaked for 24 hours, sowed in akadama with top layer of sowing soil.
11 = 14,67%
total:
750 seeds, 241 prouted = 32,13%

The not stratified group is starting to sprout
i've not seen damping off for the moment. I water mostly at noon, the surface of the akadama is dry by then, the sowing soil not and i give them a light sprinkle to moisten the needles. Last year i had them in potting soil and had no issues.

In group 1 the first ones are turning purple, so close to a month after germination. The center needles are coming visible. From the foto's on the site of bonsai tonight (http://bonsaitonight.com/tag/seedling-cutting/), i think i have to wait a little longer to make the first seedling cuttings. Any advise?

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

some foto's

from left to right 1,2,3,4

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

results 26 april (38 days):
group 1a: +- 150 stratified in paper towel (3 months), sowed in akadama
76 = 50,67%
group 1b: +- 150 stratified in paper towel (3 months), sowed in akadama with top layer of sowing soil.
70 = 46,67%
group 2a: +- 75 stratified in sand (3 months), sowed in akadama
29 = 38,67%
group 2b: +- 75 stratified in sand (3 months), sowed in akadama with top layer of sowing soil.
24 = 32,00%
group 3a: +- 75 stratified in paper towel (3 weeks), sowed in akadama
16 = 21,33%
group 3b: +- 75 stratified in paper towel (3 weeks), sowed in akadama with top layer of sowing soil.
15 = 20,00%
group 4a: +- 75 not stratified but soaked for 24 hours, sowed in akadama
20 = 26,67%
group 4b: +- 75 not stratified but soaked for 24 hours, sowed in akadama with top layer of sowing soil.
15 = 20,00%
total:
750 seeds, 265 sprouted = 35,33%

 

[0soyoung]

bump!

Is there a 'final' tally or did nothing additional sprout after 26Apr15?

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

I forgot to continue. Since i started making seedling cuttings from the different groups i lost count. I'll do a final count and share my thoughts. Thanks for bumping.

 

[klosi]

This is a great thread! Thanks for posting this "experiment". Hope we get end results
So when did you cut seedlings?
What is your major guide (source) for raising these up correctly?

 

[Anthony]

Normally we just plant in a mix of peatmoss with over 80% by volume, of 3 to 5 mm builder's gravel, and they pop up in 10 days or so.
With the Japanese packs supplied by Dallas or Bonsai Boy, it is 31 seeds and 25 to 28 seedlings
No stratification needed.

Then nature takes it's course with about 5 weak or ones with weirdly shaped needles dying in 6 months.
Then a year later 1 or 2 may pass away from the transfer or after the transfer to clay pots.

Now we use cuttings, much faster.
Good Day
Anthony