Fertilizer Q's

[JoeR]

For most my bonsai, just an all purpose liquid fertilizer seems to be working decently. However I do have some questions. Fertilizer seems never to be talked about and I can't find any info on it.

What kind of fertilizer do you guys use on your flowering bonsai? Just an all purpose fertilizer and what, maybe bonemeal perhaps? (Specifically crabapple and cherry pre bonsai stock)

Is just an all purpose fert and maybe foliar feeder fert suitable for a shimpaku?

(I am not in any clubs so it is quite difficult to find this info myself, sorry.)

What brands of fertilizer balls do you recommend? Most people make them but I don't know what I am doing when it comes to that stuff. Maybe a recipe that's easy to find the materials for and inexpensive?

I am just using an all purpose for my...
Bald Cypress
Pro nana Junipers
Privets
Citrus'
Lemon cypress
Soon to be maples

Plants in question:
Higan autumnalis cherry
Liset crabapple
Shimpaku juniper

Thanks in advance.

 

[Bunjeh]

Cop Out

Thanks for starting this thread. I have been looking into the same topic. Basically, I don't have enough of an attention span to figure out the proper mix for each species so I go with an organic fish emulsion every two weeks after bud break and stoping at the first frost for everything.

 

[drew33998]

Fertilizer is a bit like soil mixes. There are many different types and approaches. Some use only organic fertilizer as they think that it is more beneficial for the tree. While others use the cheapest store bought chemicals you can get. I believe Walter Pall does this. But don't quote me on it. If you use organic fertilizers it is near impossible to over fertilize as your trees will absorb what they need when they need it. If you use non slow release chemical you can burn trees. I have used osmocote and organics. I recently got some seabird guano that I am going to use in my regiment. I would use a mix of different fertilizers as they all have different concentrations of micro-nutrients.

 

[edprocoat]

I have never burned a tree in 40 years and I use Osmocote slow release balanced 20-20-20 all over the surface even mixing some in with my soil if I am repotting and I also mix up some liquid Miracle Grow or Peters or Schultz and spray it on the leaves and soak the soil mix every week or two during growing season. I think the whole burn thing is a myth similar to watering your trees (or lawn) when the sun is shining will let the water drops magnify the sun and burn your leaves. lol Plants will take in whatever nutrients it needs from your ferts and the rest just washes out of the soil, the key being having plenty available when it wants some. I also do not agree or adhere to the "never fertilize a just worked on or sick plant" notice where I said above that I mix it in the soil when repotting? Now I have seen organics clog soil mixes especially the cake types many who use them consistently remove the top layer of soil and replace it as it gets clogged up.

ed

 

[Anthony]

Hmm, Ed,

and it is nice to know that someone has more experience than we folk down here, by 5 years -

On our side, organic material is worked on vigourously by our soil folk, and it might be so for zone 7 and lower down. So cakes may not clog as the temperature goes up, with longer growing seasons. Ours being roughly 10 months or so.

Fertiliser after repotting, we pass a month, and then go into 1/3 strength lawn fertiliser, and into moist soil. With the rain, a sprinkling of an osmocote type [ from Israel designed for 86 deg.F ] and no need for fertiliser.

The stronger sunlight tends to lighten the leaf colour, the lawn fertiliser leaves it a nice deep green.
And that's how simple we keep it.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Bunjeh]

\

The stronger sunlight tends to lighten the leaf colour, the lawn fertiliser leaves it a nice deep green.

Anthony

Which do you recommend? Lilly Miller? Most of those are 20-0-1 or so.

 

[sikadelic]

I still have a lot to learn myself so I don't give a lot of advice, but I learned something over the course of this past Spring and will change my fertilizing habits a bit this year.

Last year I was adding Osmocote monthly and using miracle gro mixed at double strength on a weekly basis. I noticed that I got a lot of growth but it makes it much easier for your trees to get away from you. Specifically for my JMs, they got extremely leggy and my lack of regular pruning (it was freshly chopped and repotted as a nursery tree) gave me little to no ramification....just most growth on the growing ends which is to be expected without pruning.

This year I will do the osmocote and back off to miracle gro at regular strength every 2 weeks so I can get my growth back under control. Of course this is just my assessment and may vary with you all.

 

[JoeR]

Fertilizer is a bit like soil mixes. There are many different types and approaches. Some use only organic fertilizer as they think that it is more beneficial for the tree. While others use the cheapest store bought chemicals you can get. I believe Walter Pall does this. But don't quote me on it. If you use organic fertilizers it is near impossible to over fertilize as your trees will absorb what they need when they need it. If you use non slow release chemical you can burn trees. I have used osmocote and organics. I recently got some seabird guano that I am going to use in my regiment. I would use a mix of different fertilizers as they all have different concentrations of micro-nutrients.

I should have also asked this originally,
I would prefer organic because it just seems to make more sense and also won't burn our trees. I just don't know what to use as far as organics. Its easy just to pick up some osmocote but its difficult to make a homemade organic mix. What should I include in such a mix? Do flowering and fruiting trees need special ingredients?

 

[KennedyMarx]

I think typically those that use completely inorganic mixes (lava, akadama, pumice) use organic fertilizer cakes and fish emulsion. Mixes with organics (Turface, lava, pine bark or nursery soils) use artificially created chemical fertilizers. There are of course exceptions.

Personally, I don't think type matters as much as amount. I found that I wasn't fertilizing enough to get the growth I needed on trees that need development versus refinement.

Plant Tone and Holly Tone are good organic fertilizers with added micronutrients and beneficial mycorrhiza. Dyna Gro and Ironite are good chemical fertilizers with extra micronutrients. And of course there are always Schulz and Miracle Grow.

Here is an instructional post by Brian Van Fleet (member here) on how he makes cakes: https://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/2013/05/18/feeding-the-trees-let-them-eat-cake-and-fish/

 

[M. Frary]

Miracle grow. Once a week.2 to 3 times amount prescribed. Inorganic soil. Inorganic fertilizer . Water every day. Walter Pall method.

 

[Anthony]

Bunjeh,

I can't give any advice, remember I live in the Tropics, stronger sunlight. You are in Washinton State, correct, probably better to follow the breakdown N.P.K on Oil Cakes - 7/6N 2P 2K .

Mike, there is some information on forcing trees to grow fast, it also gives them weaker/softer internal structures.
As a practical example, we have a tree [ Cedrula spelling? ] used for construction in drawers [ as in Chest of Drawers ] a bitter wood. Medium hardness, holds nails easily.

If grown in our Northern range hills, the wood is soft and spongy, easily consumed by termites, and if grown in the dry southern part of the Island, the wood is harder than normal, and extremely bitter.

Khaimraj [ brother-in-law ] used to be an africanised beekeeper, and bought some of that Northern Range wood, as hive and super bodies,it was gone in less than a year after exposure to outdoors.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[JoeR]

Miracle grow. Once a week.2 to 3 times amount prescribed. Inorganic soil. Inorganic fertilizer . Water every day. Walter Pall method.

If anybody is interested in more details, I found this link:
http://walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.com/2010/06/feeding-substrate-and-watering-english.html?m=1

 

[jk_lewis]

EVERYTHING you need to know about fertilizing bonsai.

http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/fertiliz.htm

 

[drew33998]

I should have also asked this originally,
I would prefer organic because it just seems to make more sense and also won't burn our trees. I just don't know what to use as far as organics. Its easy just to pick up some osmocote but its difficult to make a homemade organic mix. What should I include in such a mix? Do flowering and fruiting trees need special ingredients?

Ok. Here is the thing. I know some people are chiming in about not burning trees using chemicals. IF you use a slow release fert such as Osmocote then you don't have to worry about burning. If you use a non-slow release fert you absolutely can burn your plants. I switched over to organics because of the humic benefits. As far as species specific fertilize regimens I can't help you there. Personally I don't have enough experience to make a statement such as you should use X on flowering trees at X time of year for X amount of time.

 

[jk_lewis]

If you use a non-slow release fert you absolutely can burn your plants.

Aw come on. I hate the word "absolutely." I have been doing bonsai for more than 40 years now. I use the Walter Pall "whatever-is-cheapest-at-the-moment" fertilizer regime (Peters or Miracle Grow-type fertilizers, along with fairly regular applications of fish emulsion plus trace elements,) all that time and I've never seen the first hint of plant burn. I think I've heard that kind of statement a few hundred times in that 40 years, and based on my experience and other growers I've known over that time, I think you'd have to be TRYING to "burn your plants" by applying 5 to 10 TIMES the recommended label strength.

We water our trees at least once a day on average, and if we do it right, we water until it flows out of the bottom of the pot, wait a bit, then we do it again. So we routinely FLUSH our trees' soil with water.

Frankly, I think you lose control over how much fertilizer your trees get and when they get it if you use a time-release product. That may be suitable for someone with 100 % pre-bonsai, but NOT for anyone with finished or close-to-finished trees.

Just rad Brent's article (above) and stop making such a big deal about fertilizer. It is not high-level biochemistry.

 

[JoeR]

To sum it up:
I want a balanced one like 20-20-20 or 10-10-10 if it's significantly cheaper.

Really all a fertilizer requires is a balanced number and all of these trace elements:

calcium, magnesium, sulfur, iron, zinc, copper, manganese, molybdenum, cobalt, nickel

I plan on getting the cheapest stuff you can get, as long as it has all of these. Most likely miracle grow.

I do have a final question though. With all that fertilizer running into the ground, I don't really want it to go into the creek that's maybe 150 feet from my house. Will it really be an issue and is there anything I could do about it if so?
Honestly I don't think it's a big deal, but you never know.

 

[drew33998]

Aw come on. I hate the word "absolutely." I have been doing bonsai for more than 40 years now. I use the Walter Pall "whatever-is-cheapest-at-the-moment" fertilizer regime (Peters or Miracle Grow-type fertilizers, along with fairly regular applications of fish emulsion plus trace elements,) all that time and I've never seen the first hint of plant burn. I think I've heard that kind of statement a few hundred times in that 40 years, and based on my experience and other growers I've known over that time, I think you'd have to be TRYING to "burn your plants" by applying 5 to 10 TIMES the recommended label strength.

We water our trees at least once a day on average, and if we do it right, we water until it flows out of the bottom of the pot, wait a bit, then we do it again. So we routinely FLUSH our trees' soil with water.

Frankly, I think you lose control over how much fertilizer your trees get and when they get it if you use a time-release product. That may be suitable for someone with 100 % pre-bonsai, but NOT for anyone with finished or close-to-finished trees.

Just rad Brent's article (above) and stop making such a big deal about fertilizer. It is not high-level biochemistry.

Agree to disagree. Everyone does it their own way. Which is what I stated to begin with. You find something that works for you and you apply it.


Here is a good read about the effect of Ammonium Fert on soils and plants. Ammonium based fertilizers over time have the potential to lower soil PH. The lower the soil ph the more "locked" the soil becomes. This means that with a ph lower than is acceptable for your species, the roots cannot absorb needed nutrients from the soil. Thus you can add all the fertilizer in the world, but essentially you are flushing it out of the pot unused and adding to the problem. This actually is high level bio-chemistry. There are many factors that effect the way that nutrients are absorbed by the plant, not the least of which is the CEC. Also something else that contributes to low soil ph is water. If your water has a low ph then it too will affect the soils ph. Not a scientist, but I do trust what I read published by scientists.

http://extension.psu.edu/agronomy-guide/cm/sec2/sec28 Penn State Extension Agency

Another good read on the ideal ph requirements for differing species. Mississippi State Extension Agency

http://msucares.com/pubs/infosheets/is0372.pdf


http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/the-gulf-of-mexico-has/

Here is a link that talks about the effects of fertilizer run-off on a large scale. This run-off is from commercial farms applying chemical fertilizers that run-off into the water ways. Not something that I think the small amount of fert we apply would ever cause. But a good read nonetheless.