Foliage pads

[Neli]

Rob,
I know you understand...what I meant.
You know if I show You a picture of pines in a nursery...all the same height , all the traditional Japanese style...all looking almost the same...it can put you off...just mass produced trees for the foreign market...no individuality.
If I just post one of this trees here everyone will like it...but when you see them all together...it spoils them all...
My biggest challenge is now to come out of the BOX. And it is not easy. I have been looking at thousands of pictures...trying to analyze what I like what I dont like, what makes it different...how different cultures style what makes a bonsai interesting and unique...
For short I am trying to find my self and develop a unique style...and is hard. I hope I will manage to come out of the left right back sequence and the rest of the preconceived requirements, for a standard bonsai.

 

[Vance Wood]

Rob,For short I am trying to find my self and develop a unique style...and is hard. I hope I will manage to come out of the left right back sequence and the rest of the preconceived requirements, for a standard bonsai.

Agin I feel like I have to agree with the ancient Chinese Philosopher Ho Lee Crap, why don't you try to achieve world peace first. Americans in particular, at least some of them, have been trying to achieve the same thing for more than sixty years. The real problem is, as it seems, the attempt to achieve that elusive goal dooms that quest to failure.

Another problem is if you don't understand the totality of the original art how can you know if you have come up with something different? A little clue you should keep in mind during this quest: You cannot call something that looks like the turd of Damocles, your private style of bonsai and therefore immune from criticism.

 

[GO-OK]

...and after all of this back and forth, at the end of the day what matters is CHARACTER. Look at any top notch tree from anywhere, regardless of religious affiliation, country of origin or blood type and pedigree.

Good trees, really really good trees have character. Some have pads, some don't, some have bar branches some don't etc....

Another interesting point is that in most cases the people that grew them or maintain them don't feel the need to debate all this crap and or the need to name and categorize and explain every damn thing. They are out there developing, collecting, sifting, wiring, plucking etc.....

Just my two cents as a guy who likes pads on some trees and not on others. Back to my garage to pluck needles in the cold.

 

[Anthony]

Simple Neli,

take a walk around the trees you have on your side. See the volume of the trees.
Ask yourself why you like those particular shapes, what you might change and does it still work with the shape you are looking at.

It has to do with your strongest memories.
Good Day.
Anthony

 

[Neli]

Agin I feel like I have to agree with the ancient Chinese Philosopher Ho Lee Crap, why don't you try to achieve world peace first. Americans in particular, at least some of them, have been trying to achieve the same thing for more than sixty years. The real problem is, as it seems, the attempt to achieve that elusive goal dooms that quest to failure.
Everything is possible...if you try hard enough, and I have the resources.

Another problem is if you don't understand the totality of the original art how can you know if you have come up with something different?
At this point I am in a quest to understand the totality if ever that is possible as I stated above. Then ones enlightenment comes I believe chances are there

A little clue you should keep in mind during this quest: You cannot call something that looks like the turd of Damocles, your private style of bonsai and therefore immune from criticism.

I dont plan to produce turds, not that it can not happen...and I dont expect people to call a turd swan. I think I am not that naive not to know a turd when I see one.
I am not planning to achieve a private style of bonsai....just unique interesting original bonsai that I would like...and consider beautiful.
Critique as long as not malicious I welcome for it brings me closer to the goal.

 

[Neli]

Simple Neli,

take a walk around the trees you have on your side. See the volume of the trees.
Ask yourself why you like those particular shapes, what you might change and does it still work with the shape you are looking at.

It has to do with your strongest memories.
Good Day.
Anthony

Yes Anthony,
That is a good tool, and I believe very important...I try to change every tree I see...after figuring out if I like it and why...and some time I learn more from bad trees that from good ones.
They tell me what not to do.

 

[tim]

This is a common myrtle which I've grown from a cutting since about 2000. Before I knew it I sat with these pads.
Any advice ? I was thinking of re-styling it,but I'm stuck.
Is the pads to big? They seem to be at the same level, but there is no "handle bar" branches.

I hope the pic shows,I'm having trouble uploading.

Thanx.

 

[Vance Wood]

I dont plan to produce turds, not that it can not happen...and I dont expect people to call a turd swan. I think I am not that naive not to know a turd when I see one.
I am not planning to achieve a private style of bonsai....just unique interesting original bonsai that I would like...and consider beautiful.
Critique as long as not malicious I welcome for it brings me closer to the goal.

I don't wish to turn anything into an argument but would it not be possible to entertain critique from someone within a discipline where you are opposed to it's standards, and in a way, think you are better than?

 

[ABCarve]

This is a common myrtle which I've grown from a cutting since about 2000. Before I knew it I sat with these pads.
Any advice ? I was thinking of re-styling it,but I'm stuck.
Is the pads to big? They seem to be at the same level, but there is no "handle bar" branches.

I hope the pic shows,I'm having trouble uploading.

Thanx.

Tim, I think your branch placements are a bit too uniform and the tree doesn't seem to have many back branches. It makes the tree look 2 dimensional. I'm not very familiar with the material, but you may be able to encourage or somehow graph some branches into the back/front where they're needed. You may also be able to pull some secondary branches down so that they break up the uniformity of the negative space between the branches.

 

[october]

Hi Neli,
Personally, I think you have already found your path in Bonsai. That being bonsai itself. In my opinion, the quest you are on, in the end, you will realize that it was not a quest, but more of a distraction. All the time spent trying to "find one's self" in bonsai can actually take away from journey. Once again it is something that will inhibit the exact thing you are trying to achieve. From your posts, you already know what a nice bonsai is and what looks good. The longer you are in bonsai, the more it will all make sense.

However, there are other areas, besides bonsai styling that you can explore, such as horticultural aspects. I am currently doing some side projects. I think you might be familar with these 2 projects. When venturing into new territory, one has to ask themselves, why they are doing it and what they plan to accomplish. In this case, I wanted to push the limit beyond what is conventional. My reason for doing this was to possibly open new doors for others and myself as far as material. The more material and more ways we have to make great bonsai, the better. Also, maybe not having to spend incredible amounts of money to do it is always nice.

I do have an area that you could explore. How about grafting different species onto each other. For example, deciduous on pine, juniper onto hinoki, maple onto elm etc.. Now before everyone thinks this is just crazy, I have a reason for suggesting this. There is a highway I travel all the time. There is a very large tree, maybe 50-60 feet. The bottom half is deciduous and the top is pine. I do not know what species for either. In Summer, the bottom 50% of the tree is all leaves and the top half is pine needles, maybe white, but I am not sure. It is the only mixed species tree I have ever seen. So, if you find it interesting to maybe have a 12 inch tree that is half maple and half pine, you might want to look into it. I just ask that if you win a huge, prestigious prize someday, you mention me.

Here are the links to my 2 side projects.

Rob

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?12637-Yamadori-style-alberta-spruce

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?13019-Juniper-Trunk-Chop-Cutting-Success!

 

[tim]

Thanx abc. The uniformity of the branches is what worries me. There are adequate branching at the back. Just not visible in the pic.
Will try to take side pics tomorrow. It's a drag using this cell phone!

What do u think about the uniformity? Some main branches has to go ?

 

[Vance Wood]

This is a common myrtle which I've grown from a cutting since about 2000. Before I knew it I sat with these pads.
Any advice ? I was thinking of re-styling it,but I'm stuck.
Is the pads to big? They seem to be at the same level, but there is no "handle bar" branches.

I hope the pic shows,I'm having trouble uploading.

Thanx.

Well it seems that we have departed into the realm of ------ hell I don't know. Here is what the conventional bonsai wisdom would tell you to do. If you take the time to study the art and the methods and the standards (god forbid rules), and the suggestions from growers who have been doing it wrong for many years you may learn how to do bonsai.

I know or believe that you are not one of these; I want to re-invent bonsai people, so I will address you from the point of view trying to help you make better bonsai within the bonsai sensibility. Your pads are a bit overgrown, you need to thin them out and pull them back. Your trunk is too thin for the size of your tree. The trunk should be in inches or feet or millimeters; 3 to one up to 6 to on in a ratio, where the tree is anywhere from three times as tall as the base of the trunk is wide, to six times as tall as the tree is wide. Ideally the trunk should be tapered from the bottom to the top. Bonsai is an illusion and these relations give the impression of a grown tree. That can be accomplished in several ways. The side branches and the top can be cut back too conform to these ratios or the tree can be grown on in a large container or the ground to thicken the trunk until one of these ratios is reached.

Once this point is reached you can re-grow the branch structure; branch structure is quasi-expendable on a Juniper. When you are growing a tree up into a bonsai this is the approach you have to take, you grow for" this" first then, you grow for "that" and then you grow for "the other things", what ever they may be and in what ever sequence. Any attempt to grow a tree into a bonsai will lead you down a path of disappointment with the design for years, unless you go through this stepped up process.

You have done a great job with this material to get it to this place of development but now as you have gained enough experience you are starting to ask questions that will take you years to figure out by yourself.

 

[tim]

You are right vance. I do not want to re-invent the wheel. The masters of ages ago has made sure nobody can invent a new style.

I'm aware of the rules,ratios etc. I've allowed this tree to grow out of hand ,because I like so much,and I'm "scared" to take out the tools and make the changes. I know it does'nt make sense,but that's why I posted it. Been pondering for a long time about it's future.

What do u suggest. Should I remove one of the bottom main branches,shorten the other one and work my way up the tree? It obviously should be shortened as well. They back bud ok,in my experience. So chop it,use a new bud or existing small branch and let go to achieve more taper.
I guess what I'm asking is ,what current branches or pads should I keep and use in the new design?
Thanx.

 

[Vance Wood]

You are right vance. I do not want to re-invent the wheel. The masters of ages ago has made sure nobody can invent a new style.

I'm aware of the rules,ratios etc. I've allowed this tree to grow out of hand ,because I like so much,and I'm "scared" to take out the tools and make the changes. I know it does'nt make sense,but that's why I posted it. Been pondering for a long time about it's future.

What do u suggest. Should I remove one of the bottom main branches,shorten the other one and work my way up the tree? It obviously should be shortened as well. They back bud ok,in my experience. So chop it,use a new bud or existing small branch and let go to achieve more taper.
I guess what I'm asking is ,what current branches or pads should I keep and use in the new design?
Thanx.

It seems you have a lot of time and emotion invested in this tree. Why don't you go out and purchase a nursery Juniper of some kind and see what you can do with that. Work on cutting down a tree into a bonsai a couple of times while allowing your tree to kind of do its own thing. Come back and revisit the tree in a couple of years and see how you feel about it then or------you can hack and slash on it now.

However as things are now the only way to make positive changes to your tree is to make drastic changes to it sooner than maybe you are willing to. I can tell you this twenty years from now you will look at this tree and make those changes.

 

[ABCarve]

Thanx abc. The uniformity of the branches is what worries me. There are adequate branching at the back. Just not visible in the pic.
Will try to take side pics tomorrow. It's a drag using this cell phone!

What do u think about the uniformity? Some main branches has to go ?

I don't think they have to go. IMO the tree is too tall...cut the top off right above the last top branch. The lower branching is very predictable as you go up....the perfect triangle. To me... fixing it would require having the pads intermingle a bit by pulling some down, changing their shapes so they weren't all the same. Our linear brains are obsessed with euclidean geometry and we try to turn everything into a pattern which doesn't look very organic. Look at some tree pads... they don't usually have white space around the whole thing....they invade each others space. I would do virt but Photoshop crapped out on me. There is plenty of talent here to give you what you're looking for.

 

[youngsai]

In an attempt to try to make sense of this thread, I want to try to sum it up in as layman a term as possible.

We have argued (quite successfully I might add, with personal darts and attacks deftly avoided to further the general discussion) about the use of pads in bonsai. The consensus seems to be that pads can be used quite effectively to portray better the age and perceived size of a tree. We also seem to agree that pads seem to work better (but not exclusively, ill cover this more later) for trees in the far-away style, trees that the artist wishes to convey, are being viewed from a distance, say a quarter mile away or there abouts.

For trees being looked at for close-view, say I'm 5 feet away from a tree looking up, pads seem to work not as well, or at least need extremely careful execution.

Furthermore, for the health of the tree in terms of long-term design stability, pads are of crucial use or the loss of taper and other design issues begin to present themselves.

**the last bit is not from experience, so please correct if I'm wrong or else my foundation for this belief will be structured poorly***

One thing I would like to hear comments on are that I notice that when different species are presented the pad either looks good or looks poorly manhandled, I believe this was october's point with both his juniper and his pine. On the pine, the rounded pads look well as a direct consequences of the rounded nature that pine needles naturally create. On the juniper this looked silly, which I think is because the pads on a juniper need to be sharp, not rounded, due to the sharp naturally pointy nature of juniper needle pads. However, pines seem a bit more malleable, and can have the sharp pointed foliage as well, with junipers IMHO having a little less malleable and the pads difficult to achieve convincingly.

 

[catfish chapstick]

No, I am agreeing with you. That was the point of me posting this. I was unhappy with the looks in pics 2 and 3. I love pads, but they need to be in proportion and also have the proper placement. Which I do not think pics 2 and 3 had. The last 2 pics have pads, but they are smaller, greater in quantity, better structured and have better placement. Many trees look better with multiple pads that come off of one branch. If you have only one pad coming off of one branch the tree does not look mature. Breaking larger pads up into multiple pads can make a world of difference.

Here is another example. Look at the pad on the bottom right. One large pad coming off a branch. Now look at the second pic with the pad broken up into 2 smaller pads. An immediate improvement, in my opinion. Also, if the tree looks pale in pics 1 and 2, it is because pics were taken at the end of last winter when the tree was taken out of winter storage. The third pic is the current look of the tree. The tree need to mature, but the pads have good structure that should make for an image that continues to improve.

Rob

This. I am beginning to think pads look good if they are refined in this way. You have opened my eyes. I think it's mostly due to distribution and composition. And breaking up the space more and a bit irregularly.

 

[Neli]

I don't wish to turn anything into an argument but would it not be possible to entertain critique from someone within a discipline where you are opposed to it's standards, and in a way, think you are better than?

I think our discussion is very civilized and I am enjoying it. I dont see any arguments here. We are just expressing our views and believes. Views and believes dont have to be the same as bonsai are not supposed to be the same. Can you imagine every one is the same, and our trees are all the same.
Here I am not talking of opposing discipline and standards but promoting our differences, in order to achieve beautiful trees expressing our individuality.
Discipline standards and pads all have their reason and place, but we must not fear the very banal phrase: the rules can be broken when you learn and understand them well.
Beauty is very subjective and some time personal.
I am not talking here of creating new styles and opposing some styles, I am talking about trees that say: this tree was made by Vance Wood and it is very beautiful. I am talking of trees that express your individual preferences and feelings.
I also believe in respecting opposing views, for they are part of that difference and individuality I am trying to promote.
,

 

[october]

This. I am beginning to think pads look good if they are refined in this way. You have opened my eyes. I think it's mostly due to distribution and composition. And breaking up the space more and a bit irregularly.

Exactly!

Rob

 

[Vance Wood]

I think our discussion is very civilized and I am enjoying it. I dont see any arguments here. We are just expressing our views and believes. Views and believes dont have to be the same as bonsai are not supposed to be the same. Can you imagine every one is the same, and our trees are all the same.
Here I am not talking of opposing discipline and standards but promoting our differences, in order to achieve beautiful trees expressing our individuality.
Discipline standards and pads all have their reason and place, but we must not fear the very banal phrase: the rules can be broken when you learn and understand them well.
Beauty is very subjective and some time personal.
I am not talking here of creating new styles and opposing some styles, I am talking about trees that say: this tree was made by Vance Wood and it is very beautiful. I am talking of trees that express your individual preferences and feelings.
I also believe in respecting opposing views, for they are part of that difference and individuality I am trying to promote.
,

That clarifies things a lot. I do have a question though. How interested are you in entertaining suggestion and design solutions?