Full defoliation

[Walter Pall]

Second flush after full defoliation on French Maple and Field Maple. Some concerned individuals wrote to me whether I knew that one must not fully defoiiate these species. Well, I knew, but the maples cannot read.

 

[sorce]

Folks are still trying to overthrow the king? Lol!

I don't know if you think about prior health, but to me, you nail the prior health necessary for this and any actions.

Nice.

Sorce

 

[Paradox]

I don't know if you think about prior health, but to me, you nail the prior health necessary for this and any actions.

Nice.

Sorce

I am pretty sure he does...lol

 

[sorce]

I am pretty sure he does...lol

I forget I must include the context of how I've been speaking about it.

Like, specifically much more important than the ridiculousness that is "aftercare".

When your general system creates it, it omits the necessity of thinking about it.

The main point being, even other "professionals" speak about aftercare as if it matters. Which to me, says their trees aren't as healthy as they could be.

Sorce

 

[Paradox]

I forget I must include the context of how I've been speaking about it.

Like, specifically much more important than the ridiculousness that is "aftercare".

When your general system creates it, it omits the necessity of thinking about it.

The main point being, even other "professionals" speak about aftercare as if it matters. Which to me, says their trees aren't as healthy as they could be.

Sorce

The necessity and extent of aftercare really depends on what you are doing specifically.
There are degrees of stress depending on what you have done.
There is probably less stress to pruning a branch or two than a de-leafing which is probably less stress than a root reduction..
This could also be species dependent. Some species accept certain "insults" better than other species do.
No matter what you are doing, health is paramount, but everything we do does impart some stress to the tree and must be accounted for accordingly.

In short.....it depends

 

[sorce]

must be accounted for accordingly.

Everything "accordingly" comes before and directly during the action.

It's the same way nature works.... naturally.

Root reduction that needs aftercare was too severe. Too impatient. That's the largest problem leading to the belief that "aftercare" matters.

Sorce

 

[Paradox]

Everything "accordingly" comes before and directly during the action.

It's the same way nature works.... naturally.

Root reduction that needs aftercare was too severe. Too impatient. That's the largest problem leading to the belief that "aftercare" matters.

Sorce

Well we will just have to disagree. I feel appropriate care (ie after care) following ANY kind of work does matter.
Even if its just being patient and leaving the tree alone before doing additional work to a tree, it is still after care and it still matters

 

[It's Kev]

I agree with @sorce ’s aftercare comment, even though the only thing I’ve ever completely defoliated was a ficus (which is basically a weed) I just dumped it outside again exactly where it was and gave it the same treatment as all my other trees, and it was fine.
And that’s because of that prior health thing, don’t massacre a tree that looks poorly, we all know better than that
Also, I respect Walter as some sort of bonsai deity, so whatever he does, he has a Midas touch and I’m sure he knows what he’s doing

 

[Forsoothe!]

WP has said many times that he puts aside for as many years as necessary any tree that needs to rest or recover or grow and does not work on trees that are not ready for what he intends to do at any given time. He has more trees in his system than he can work on, so he is not compelled to work on a tree just because he needs something to do.

 

[Paradox]

I agree with @sorce ’s aftercare comment, even though the only thing I’ve ever completely defoliated was a ficus (which is basically a weed) I just dumped it outside again exactly where it was and gave it the same treatment as all my other trees, and it was fine.
And that’s because of that prior health thing, don’t massacre a tree that looks poorly, we all know better than that
Also, I respect Walter as some sort of bonsai deity, so whatever he does, he has a Midas touch and I’m sure he knows what he’s doing

Did you also repot, wire and prune the ficus after you defoliated it? Of course not, because one or more of those other things might be too much. Aftercare doesn't have to be anything other than doing nothing else to the tree besides being patient and letting it recover which is what you did.

Ficus is a perfect example of what I was referring to with my comment about species differences. Ficus can handle defoliation with ease if done at the right time of year and healthy. But you still have to let it recover and grow new leaves before doing much else.

You wouldn't take a pine a couple of weeks after repotting it and start wiring it or doing massive pruning. You will probably just leave alone and water it when it needs it. I call that aftercare. I don't care how healthy a tree is, most are not bulletproof and if you do too much in too short a time, you are going to probably kill it.

Yes health matters but that is true of anything we do in bonsai. Someone that does work on a tree when it is not healthy or is stressed is asking for a dead tree. People, particularly new people who don't know any better yet do this more often than you think. We see it all the time.

 

[Walter Pall]

Second flush after full defoliation on Balkan Beech and European Beech - They say that on these species and as well on Japanese Beech one must not do a full defoliation. On very vigorous trees you may very well do it. See the results 20 days later. I do not pinch after the buds brake open and let the trees grow freely for six to eight weeks before I hedge prune and sometimes fully defoliate. Thus they are very vigorous. Only long term results count - not opinions.

 

[Mikecheck123]

Did you also repot, wire and prune the ficus after you defoliated it? Of course not, because one or more of those other things might be too much. Aftercare doesn't have to be anything other than doing nothing else to the tree besides being patient and letting it recover which is what you did.

Ficus is a perfect example of what I was referring to with my comment about species differences. Ficus can handle defoliation with ease if done at the right time of year and healthy. But you still have to let it recover and grow new leaves before doing much else.

You wouldn't take a pine a couple of weeks after repotting it and start wiring it or doing massive pruning. You will probably just leave alone and water it when it needs it. I call that aftercare. I don't care how healthy a tree is, most are not bulletproof and if you do too much in too short a time, you are going to probably kill it.

Yes health matters but that is true of anything we do in bonsai. Someone that does work on a tree when it is not healthy or is stressed is asking for a dead tree. People, particularly new people who don't know any better yet do this more often than you think. We see it all the time.

If aftercare means doing nothing, I do tons of aftercare.

 

[Walter Pall]

 

[Paradox]

If aftercare means doing nothing, I do tons of aftercare.

As with many things in bonsai, it depends.
Putting a tree in shade for a few weeks after repotting is aftercare. Watching the watering on a tree that has been repotted or stressed is aftercare. Not continuing to work on that tree and putting it aside to recover is aftercare.

People have blown the meaning or "aftercare" into meaning some special, labor intensive, IC unit for trees. It isn't and doesn't have to be.

One instance where aftercare is more involved is what some collectors do for old yamadori they have collected.

 

[Walter Pall]

Second flush on Trident Maples after full defoliation. - With this species full defoliation is "allowed" and common. It sure works well. But the extremely fine ramification and tiny leaves on one of these is uncommon..

 

[fredman]

I do not pinch after the buds brake open and let the trees grow freely for six to eight weeks before I hedge prune and sometimes fully defoliate.

May I ask...what are the deciding factors when you choose between hedge pruning, and a full defoliation?
I take it for granted that a full defoliation is only done on a advanced tree in good health...am I right, or not?

 

[Walter Pall]

May I ask...what are the deciding factors when you choose between hedge pruning, and a full defoliation?
I take it for granted that a full defoliation is only done on a advanced tree in good health...am I right, or not?

I always do hedge pruning on all broadleaf trees, deciduous or evergreen, whether advanced or not advanced - everything is in development in my collection. So there is no option for choosing. In addition I do full defoliation on all that are very vigorous and have rather large eves and not so good ramification. Those that have genetically very small leaves and very good ramification (like Chinese elm, Oriental hornbeam etc.) I do not bother with full defoliation. But I could well apply it.

 

[fredman]

I always do hedge pruning on all broadleaf trees, deciduous or evergreen, whether advanced or not advanced - everything is in development in my collection. So there is no option for choosing. In addition I do full defoliation on all that are very vigorous and have rather large eves and not so good ramification. Those that have genetically very small leaves and very good ramification (like Chinese elm, Oriental hornbeam etc.) I do not bother with full defoliation. But I could well apply it.

Thank you Walter