Google and the open web... round #2

Bonsai Nut

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I am posting this on the general discussion forum because it directly impacts the future direction of this site.

As you may be aware, Google, and particularly Google's ham-handed attempt to steal the Internet, is causing huge upheaval among global content creators. Google adsense ads currently cover 90% of this site's revenues, with donations (thank you!) and our relationship with Wazakura covering the rest. This relationship has worked well, because as traffic has increased, and bandwidth and storage costs have increased, Google revenues have risen at the same pace, so that the site continued to pay for itself.

In the last year, and particularly in the last six months, Google has been scraping content from this site (and content sites all over the Internet), tossing it into an AI "blender" to disguise the source of their content, and then regurgitating it on their search engine as if it belonged to them. If you do basic searches on bonsai topics in Google, you will frequently see content from this site, without reference or backlinks to this site. Even though our site traffic continues to remain healthy, our ad revenues are plunging - down more than 40% in the last year. I am seriously wondering about the end game - and whether our relationship with Google is shooting ourselves in the foot.

In my opinion, it would be as if Pepsi was posting ads on Netflix, and used that advertising access as a channel to download all of Netflix's content. Then they used AI to blend Netflix's content and if you did a search for any of Netflix's series, instead what would pop up would be Pepsi AI driven entertainment... with no acknowledgement or revenue share with Netflix. It is the world's greatest content piracy attempt - literally Google trying to download the entire Internet and repost it as its own.

To add insult to injury, I woke up this morning to find Google spamming the site with autoads - advertising that it chooses when and where to place. I did not approve this, I did not initiate it, and it took quite a bit of effort to undo it. Perhaps it is a result of Google's anti-trust hearings, when they reported that ad revenue across the board was down 40%? Considering this is by far the largest segment of Google's businesses, it almost sounds like an admission of an existential threat to their business model - which they themselves created.

We have limited options, because as long as we continue to offer content outside of a membership wall (paid or unpaid) Google can continue to steal it. If you wonder why all news content is now behind paywalls... well there you go. And to be honest, I am still looking into whether giving Google ad serving privileges behind the membership wall allows them to steal content. They have the ability to scan content - to make sure, for example, that they aren't posting ads to adult-themed content, etc. My concern is that in their minds - scanning gives them the right to take it and feed it into their AI models and "poof" magically it becomes theirs.

Starting today I am going to turn off all image serving to non-members. Currently people were able to see thumbnails, but I have to turn that access off to prevent the theft of our image archives.

Longer term, I think the only option may be to seal all content behind a membership wall and drop all Google ads. If we do that we will either need to charge a nominal membership fee (like $2 per month) or find a number of sponsors willing to underwrite the site and sell our own ads. The sponsorship side, of course, requires a lot of work and upkeep, and I am already putting in a ton of time just on the technical side. I would prefer to charge a fee, because it would be much easier to execute. On the positive side, all the ads would go away, and the site experience would probably improve. A lot of front-end lag on this site is due to the site waiting for Google to serve ads before it renders the rest of the page.

(This is an indication of what we are dealing with - revenue from Google per 1000 page views over the last year)
page-rate-per-million.jpg
 
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I’d subscribe also.

Along with preserving the current health and community of the site, the potential future members also need to be considered. How do you demonstrate value to attract and add new members in the future? Especially in the face of AI LLMs stealing traffic.
 
I’d subscribe also.

Along with preserving the current health and community of the site, the potential future members also need to be considered. How do you demonstrate value to attract and add new members in the future? Especially in the face of AI LLMs stealing traffic.

What if picture thumbnails were allowed to be viewed in the first post of a thread only? That way people could see the value if they want to see progression.
 
I need to think about how to execute this in a way that makes the most sense. I will probably start off by creating a "super member" user group for people who have donated to the site recently, or to anyone who wants to join the super member group. Benefits for this group will be all ads will disappear, and additionally I will unlock other features to give them greater control over their content (since as 'verified' paid members the risk of abuse/spam is much lower). This group will be a beta test group to get the 'paid member' experience tweaked to make it as good as possible.

Then, assuming nothing changes with Google, I will turn off guest access to the site. And then after a few months (and plenty of warning - via site notification and email), turn off unpaid member access.

These are just initial thoughts.
 
I’d subscribe also.

Along with preserving the current health and community of the site, the potential future members also need to be considered. How do you demonstrate value to attract and add new members in the future? Especially in the face of AI LLMs stealing traffic.
Great question. I would probably try to follow a news outlet format like The Economist or NYT. They can flag some articles that they post outside of their paywall - articles that they consider to be of important community value. Additionally, they sometimes will allow you to read an article or two per month... but to read more you need to subscribe. If you search "news" you will still see links to their stories, but sometimes you can only read the headline, or the headline with one or two sentences.

For example, I could flag some forums as being public - so that posts about Bonsai Exhibitions or Events fall outside the paywall (as an example).
 
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Consider me a paying member.
I think the option of monthly/yearly subscriptions would be good.
$24 isn't far from yearly club membership.

I'm new to this forum but i would argue its probably the best resource on the internet for bonsai.
But i only knew this because I was able to see the wealth of knowledge contained here, before I signed up.
I worry that totally closing the doors to guests/non paying members would cut off new members?
It's a tricky situation.
(Edit: your above reply answers my questions!)
 
This stage of things is difficult.

As a beginner in the Bonsai hobby, I came here for two main things. Community and information/teachings/lessons/resources.

I do not feel like I am part of the greater community here. Between my (beginner) skill level, experience, and material I seem to find very little to no interaction. There may be more to it than that, no doubt. That's only to say that I would not pay for the level of community that I find as a beginner. Admittedly, that's what groups and clubs are really for.

Being a fly on the wall of those who are interacting is helpful, but starts to tip into a resource category and not a community interaction. That said, I would absolutely pay for the resources and information. No question.

The main distinction I make is in identifying who the site targets when monetizing. What's the product being sold?

I share this from a point of conversation and dialogue, not one of complaint or otherwise. This site is a bright spot in an otherwise dark sea of internet garbage...
 
I wouldn't mind paying for a premium membership if your wall can protect us from AI stealing whatever we think and and write and resell it as their new intellectual property. It called robbery! And criminal but sadly endorsed by the US government.
 
The copyright angle is pretty weak, imo. Who here hasnt reposted images you held no rights to? We all have benefited.

Better to say its necessary to take measures to keep the site afloat

Maybe premium members would be trusted to continually update community resources like I requested some time ago? I could see that as a significant value proposition
 
The logic being displayed is puzzling to me.

There are two groups of people on this site
  1. logged in members
  2. visitors that are not logged in
Presumably logged in members are continuing to click on ads and thereby finance this site.
Non-members used to come here and click on ads. Now they don't because of AI (not just Google's AI, but Microsoft's et.al.), thereby reducing Greg's revenue.


Maybe I just misunderstand the emotional content, and what is really being said is simply that :

Google just isn't paying for ad hits at the same rate it used to.
 
I would emulate the Discord business model. Enough users are willing to pay big money for small perks that everyone else can still access all of the regular features for free.
 
In other words, create a premium, ad-free membership, add extra perks for customizing posts, and see if that generates enough revenue on its own.

My biggest concern is that a paywall will scare away potential new members and eventually kill the website. We all know the value you're providing, but five years ago, if I hit a paywall, I never would have bothered with this website.
 
Remember that the service you're providing to new/prospective members is free advice. A new member will wonder, "Why should I pay for advice from amateurs when advice from professionals is free?"
 
I love this site and since I've received lots of excellent advice from here I now know it'll be worth it for a fee. But on the other hand at first I would not of played. Because of the way things are going I have had to tighten my budget since prices of everything going up and up etc......... And my pay staying the same. I have canceled all of my subscriptions except my cell phone. If you make a pay site I would not be mad but I would probably not be able to pay even though I would.
I'm in the manufacturing field as a machinist. Even though the government says they're doing things to bring manufacturing back to the US things are the worst they've ever been. Allot of our customers were foreign owned companies most of them pulled work from us because of the tariffs. If a foreign company has a entity in the US they can bring their parts in from outside the US tariff free and for cheaper then buying US parts. In my area manufacturing is one of the biggest employment opportunities other then warehousing
 
Maybe use the PBS/NPR model, have pledge drives. I have donated to this site but it’s not the first thing on my mind when I come here. Making it more obvious and having an event could bring up the bar for members that know the value of the site. Have it as many times as needed.
 
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