Goyomatsu & Korumatsu

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#21
The first Major branch is the falling branch in front. If i do it it will be in stages. Can't risk losing that branch.
It probably won't grow back.
I am studying with Marc noelanders and am going to ask him.
He's probably the best and most experienced bonsaiartist in europe.
But its a good point about the removal of the root. Thanks.
 

Adair M

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#22
Hmm...

Looking at the foliage.... I wonder if it's a Zuisho???

In the winter, are the dormant buds thin, reddish and pointed? If so, it's probably Zuisho. Which would mean it's not from seed, and not yamadori. It would have been grafted.

Now, there's several around that were originally grafted which were later layered.

Or...

It could be a tree someone wanted to make it into a clump, so they grafted on secondary trunks.

Down low, around where that root is, there is some deadwood and scarring. Maybe. There were more trunks at one time? Maybe a 7 trunk clump? And two didn't grow right, so they were removed???

It doesn't matter, of course, it's a lovely tree. The more I look at it, the more I think it's Zuisho.

Have you repotted it?

I have a Zuisho twin trunk that was originally grafted on JBP. But it was later planted deep, and the Zuisho sent out it's own roots. So, for a while, it had two sets of roots: a lower JBP set of roots, and a JWP set. During one repotting, the old JBP roots were removed so that now, it only has the JWP roots.

Mine is about the same age as yours.
 
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#23
The closest branch to that root is way up in the apex. I don't think that would be an issue.

You could do it in stages. On the back side of the exposed root, shave off bark and live tissue. Next year complete the removal. I doubt the tree would even miss it.
Agree. Removing that root will not cause any problem. Nice trees BTW!
 
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#25
I did Some asking around and traced it back to it's old owner.
It's an old man who can't take care of the trees anymore so it went to someone else who decided to sell it.
The owner had the tree in his collection for around 35 years they said.
Before that it was imported from Japan Being yamadori. There is no trace further than that.
It's on his own roots that explains why it's foliage is that light green yellowish color.
I have some more they are also old trees grown from seed also imported.
Roots are very sensitive.
Foliage light and bright.
This one was originally a 5 trunk
Nothing grafted all original.
That's all the information they had
 
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#27
@Vin yeah can't get any better than that here. Marc is a true legend. Went to him to get to the next level on bonsai.
So why not go to te best there is in europe. :)
And who knows one day I will get my own students, that would be the best!
 

Adair M

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#28
Chris,

I think it's great you're working with Marc. This tree is certainly worthy of getting the best to help you with it! Really excellent tree.

Here is a picture of one of my two Zuisho.

image.jpeg

It, too, has bright green foliage. It is also on its own roots. It was an air layer from another tree. Much younger than yours, only about 20 years old. The foliage on my tree looks very similiar to the foliage on yours. Which is why I suspected Zuisho.

Here's a picture of the foliage of another JWP. This is the foliage most commonly grafted onto JBP stock, and is what most people think of when envision "JWP". The needles are rather blueish. And the white streak on each needle is more pronounced.

image.jpeg

And on the common variety, the needles are longer.

Anyway, your tree is fantastic! A couple of years of refinement and it will really be great!

You might want to start shopping for a better pot...

Lol!
 
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#29
Thanks! There are a lot of cultivars and they al kind of look the same too. I've been told that in Japan they name they're cultivars after the area they grow. So the same cultivar can look slightly different growing in another area, but still be the same tree.

Some like zuisho and pentaphylla are very common used in bonsai.
The grafted is called setsogoyu, indeed the needles get darker when grafted.
They are grafted because white pine tend to love dryer conditions and are vunurable to rootrot.
White pine also grows real slow by nature.
With grafting them they get more vigorous and have a much stronger root system. Black pine is also much more tolerant to other climates.
A good grafted one is as good as one on his own roots. There are great examples of old grafted white pines were the graft is almost grow out. However that takes a long time.
In fall i'm picking up a big grafted white pine were the white pine bark already has the same rough texture as the black pine bark. But that one still needs many years to make the graft less visible.
More on that later...

Some of you might already knew this information but I thought I would be nice to write it down for people who are not that familiar with white pine bonsai.

Great trees @Adair M ! pot is in the making by the way ;)
 

Adair M

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#30
Zuisho is a sport of a regular JWP.

Zuisho and Kokonoe are two sports of JWP popular gor bonsai. They are pretty much the only ones that will air layer and ground layer pretty easily. They will also root from cuttings, which is also very rare! The needles are very similiar in appearance to your tree and Zuisho. Kokonoe has more rounded, grey buds in winter, while Zuisho is more pointed.

Kokonoe tends to bulk up its branches. That is they appear to thicken faster than Zuisho. I noticed your branches were thin, which is a good thing! So again, I was led to believe your tree may be Zuisho.

By the way, there are no yamadori Zuisho. If your tree is truely yamadori, then it's neither Zuisho nor Kokonoe.

In Japan, JWP are grafted onto JBP to force them to grow faster. As you say, JWP is a slow grower. They also vary in needle quality when grown as seedlings. They don't breed true. Often seedling needles will be long, or twisted, or unruly. That is, they look like bottle brushes rather than the nice tight tufts that look so nice and manicured.

Of course, the downside is JWP scions have the smooth grey "juvenile" bark for about 20 years before it finally sheds off and a more attractive flaky bark is revealed. Then it's another 20 years before it starts to form plates.

Now, about the grafts... The JWP to JBP grafts have been know to fail. Even when the tree is mature. Especially if someone is trying to get the tree to grow faster by heavily feeding it. The growth rates of the JBP stock and the JWP scion separate.

Especially on Zuisho and Kokonoe! So, the propagators in Japan are grafting Z and K onto JBP stock, with the intent of layering the JWP portion off at about age 20. By that time, the trunks have developed sufficiently to look pretty good. So now, the trees are growing on their own roots.

Now... Consider this... Would it have been possible 40 years ago for a seller to have represented a tree to a buyer as a "yamadori" since it was on its own roots when it actually had been started by grafts years before? Especially to a European tourist who wouldn't know it was possible to do such a thing???

I'm not saying that it was. But there's no way to know for sure at this point. Maybe a detailed examination of the underside of the rootball could determine it. Maybe.

Here are two JWP, on their own roots, that used to be grafted onto JBP stock. The JBP roots on both these trees have been removed. These trees were purchased from the seller before the JBP roots were removed. They both had the double root systems. And the JBP roots were removed by the buyer.

A Kokonoe:

image.jpeg

And a Zuisho:

image.jpeg
 
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#31
first of all these are both wonderful trees! I had never heard of that before so i'll ask my teacher and i already asked a friend of mine who is considered to be the best and biggest importer of europe.
He has spent years as an apprentice in japan and is now importing high quality specimen trees and yamadori for costumers around the world.
Goes to Japan twice a year to handpick trees for costumers.
I'll give you a quick peek inside his quarantine place so you get an idea.
13523934_1346399522056349_365366431_o.jpg

This was this winter after it arrived. Some of them incl a rigida juniper in the far back are trees from that have been in collections for many generations.
They go for insane prizes and are considered to be the best in european collections.
He told me me they only use the grafting method to make the white pine stronger. not to eventually separate them and sell them.

However im not showing this because i want to make a point, just because I really like to give you guys a peak in how things work here ;)
And for your statement, I believe you if you say so it's just new for me. Never had heard of it, but it if it works why not.
In the end it doesn't really matter as long as it is a great tree!

And one more picture from a yew he sold this week I've seen and touched it in real life it's amazing material. And huge!
And is in a private collection now.
13512023_10209837433156900_3856493346087038591_n.jpg
 

Adair M

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#33
first of all these are both wonderful trees! I had never heard of that before so i'll ask my teacher and i already asked a friend of mine who is considered to be the best and biggest importer of europe.
He has spent years as an apprentice in japan and is now importing high quality specimen trees and yamadori for costumers around the world.
Goes to Japan twice a year to handpick trees for costumers.
I'll give you a quick peek inside his quarantine place so you get an idea.
View attachment 109543

This was this winter after it arrived. Some of them incl a rigida juniper in the far back are trees from that have been in collections for many generations.
They go for insane prizes and are considered to be the best in european collections.
He told me me they only use the grafting method to make the white pine stronger. not to eventually separate them and sell them.

However im not showing this because i want to make a point, just because I really like to give you guys a peak in how things work here ;)
And for your statement, I believe you if you say so it's just new for me. Never had heard of it, but it if it works why not.
In the end it doesn't really matter as long as it is a great tree!

And one more picture from a yew he sold this week I've seen and touched it in real life it's amazing material. And huge!
And is in a private collection now.
View attachment 109544
Looks like your friends have access to some great trees! Importing is very difficult and expensive.

Both of the two trees I showed, the Kokonoe and the Zuisho were imported from Japan to the USA about 20 years ago. They were sold as being grafts on JBP stock. It wasn't until they had been in the USA several years and needed to be repotted that it was discovered that there were two root systems! My teacher, Boon, didn't know if it was intentional or not. But is happy both trees are on their own roots.

I was telling this story to a friend, and he told me that he, too, had a Kokonoe of about that same vintage, and indeed he found a double layered root system in his, too!

Well...

At that point, you start thinking that it just didn't happen by luck. I mean, the two trees I pictured, both had the double roots. I thought that was unusual. And now here's a third? Hmm... Someone had a long term plan!

I don't think they did it in an attempt to misrepresent the trees as yamadori, I think they were just in the business of propogating bonsai. They made them, and sold them. And the buyer sold them. And he sold it to someone else... After a while, the original story of how it was originally grafted gets forgotten. And, well, it may have gotten sold as "yamadori" just because it has rough bark and its own its own roots.

If only these trees could talk!

Anyway...

Your tree is fabulous, and it doesn't matter how it came to be, it's absolutely wonderful. It's a treasure and it's also great you are working with someone like Marc. I'm sure it makes you smile every time you see it!
 

Vin

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#34
first of all these are both wonderful trees! I had never heard of that before so i'll ask my teacher and i already asked a friend of mine who is considered to be the best and biggest importer of europe.
He has spent years as an apprentice in japan and is now importing high quality specimen trees and yamadori for costumers around the world.
Goes to Japan twice a year to handpick trees for costumers.
I'll give you a quick peek inside his quarantine place so you get an idea.
View attachment 109543

This was this winter after it arrived. Some of them incl a rigida juniper in the far back are trees from that have been in collections for many generations.
They go for insane prizes and are considered to be the best in european collections.
He told me me they only use the grafting method to make the white pine stronger. not to eventually separate them and sell them.

However im not showing this because i want to make a point, just because I really like to give you guys a peak in how things work here ;)
And for your statement, I believe you if you say so it's just new for me. Never had heard of it, but it if it works why not.
In the end it doesn't really matter as long as it is a great tree!

And one more picture from a yew he sold this week I've seen and touched it in real life it's amazing material. And huge!
And is in a private collection now.
GOOD GOLLY MISS. MOLLY!
 
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#35
Little update on the white pine it is growing strong. The right weaker part is also filling out and backbudding. Also the slab is made by a good friend of mine really awesome job he did. Already on his way to become a master in his craft.
Next to it is my yew project and i'm in the picture for size reference.
PSX_20170806_152724.jpg
 
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#36
Wait a moment
Are you a friend of Tony Tickle? I'm sure I saw that yew in some video on youtube before.
 
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#37
That was a different yew. I couldnt make it to that demo so yannick kiggen took my place with that yew. This one is in another thread just started this project