Ground Growing vs. Colanders

[River's Edge]

Keep in mind that drainage in the soil column outside of the constraints of a pot is drastically different from drainage of that same material in a pot. The soil column in the natural environment doesn’t have a bottom where a layer of water is perched, unless you live in a swampy area where the water table is close to the surface. That problem only exists because of growing in a container. You might have those issues in the trays if the tray isn’t very deep because, of course, the tray is still a container. However, you’re unlikely to have those issues for a pond basket sitting on the ground or sitting on a raised bed. You definitely won’t have drainage problems if the pond basket is sitting on a layer of mulch or wood chips as the material is more coarse than any of the soil components in the basket.

Regarding substrate cost, akadama is expensive everywhere except in Japan, because of freight costs. So, the idea that “Boon mix = inherently expensive” is valid everywhere except Japan (at least until someone decides to start up a mining operation somewhere else where the geology is similar.

I do keep in mind that a perched water column can be an issue that is why I choose the same particle size and prefer inorganic substrate that has similar water retention capabilities. And for the reason stated I do not use Akadama in grow beds. It only happens when I am recycling used soil. The use of bark substrate will create drainage but not always provide good root growth below the colanders or pond baskets. That of course depends on the type of bark and its age.
However bark holds a lot of water and in my climate that would create a lot of unwanted issues in my nursery.
I am perfectly happy for others to figure out best options for their situation.

 

[River's Edge]

So, the idea that “Boon mix = inherently expensive” is valid

Expensive is a relative term, do you not agree. Sometimes people choose higher value products because of their performance in comparison to lower cost substitutes. Not everyone uses public transit, not everyone drives a Ferrari.

That is one reason why I use it whenI feel the difference in outcome warrants it. I never suggested using boon mix in grow beds so not sure where that came from.
I would be happy to find a lower cost substitute that does the same job but so far it does not exist to my knowledge. Pumice is the closest in my experience. I wish it was a different colour and had more clay like properties.

 

[Lorax7]

I do keep in mind that a perched water column can be an issue that is why I choose the same particle size and prefer inorganic substrate that has similar water retention capabilities.

My point was that perched water is not an issue in the natural environment (unless your locale is somewhere where the water table is very high, such as right next to a river or a swamp) and, therefore, using a pricey soil mix (Boon mix) is not warranted for the bed that's outside the pond basket. Of course, this was based on the misperception that what I was seeing in the photo was Boon mix and it was later clarified that's not the case. However, if someone was using Boon mix both inside of pond baskets and also in a raised bed that the pond baskets were sitting on, in my opinion, that would be a waste of money to fill the raised bed with Boon mix (because of the high cost of akadama and the negligible overall impact vs. other less expensive substrates).

 

[Lorax7]

I never suggested using boon mix in grow beds so not sure where that came from.
I would be happy to find a lower cost substitute that does the same job but so far it does not exist to my knowledge. Pumice is the closest in my experience. I wish it was a different colour and had more clay like properties.

You didn't suggest using Boon mix in grow beds. I had looked at Mr. Norbury's photos and thought that what I was seeing was Boon mix in the grow beds. He provided clarification that it's actually something else, which is cheaper.

To be super clear, so I don't start a soil war: I am not discounting the value of Boon mix in bonsai culture. It is, in fact, what I personally use for all of my trees in containers.

 

[penumbra]

I have at least a hundred plants in pond baskets and most are on wood chips and some are in pine bark.

 

[Lorax7]

I have at least a hundred plants in pond baskets and most are on wood chips and some are in pine bark.

I have some of my pond baskets sitting on top of cypress mulch and they love it. I'll go to pick up a pond basket to work on the tree and there will be a nice pad of roots entwined with mulch that comes along with it.

 

[penumbra]

I have some of my pond baskets sitting on top of cypress mulch and they love it. I'll go to pick up a pond basket to work on the tree and there will be a nice pad of roots entwined with mulch that comes along with it.

Exactly! And it cuts my watering by half.

 

[BrierPatch]

When you're using colanders are you just using the least expensive ones like at Dollar Tree or something more of a commercial grade? It seems to me that the ones from say Dollar Tree (36 for $45) are pretty cheap junk plastic and would deteriorate pretty fast.

 

[Lorax7]

When you're using colanders are you just using the least expensive ones like at Dollar Tree or something more of a commercial grade? It seems to me that the ones from say Dollar Tree (36 for $45) are pretty cheap junk plastic and would deteriorate pretty fast.

I use plastic pond baskets because they're specifically made to be outside in the sun and are designed be resistant to UV. The plastic in ordinary colanders crosslinks when exposed to UV from the sun and the result is that they turn into brittle garbage very quickly, so quickly that they're already falling apart well before you would ordinarily want to repot the tree. The pond baskets are like $3 at Lowes and are really cheaper than the dollar store ones when you factor in the longevity of the container.

 

[River's Edge]

When you're using colanders are you just using the least expensive ones like at Dollar Tree or something more of a commercial grade? It seems to me that the ones from say Dollar Tree (36 for $45) are pretty cheap junk plastic and would deteriorate pretty fast.

I do use the cheap dollar store ones and they do break down quickly. They last longer if not exposed to UV. So those in the beds that have a thin soil covering last longer than those on top or with exposed rims. For me, it is cost effective as I do not expect to reuse then and the tree requires larger containers within two or three years in almost every case. If the rims change colour handle them carefully as they become very brittle! The thing I dislike the most is the red colour and the " Betty Crocker" label. Some of my trees have complained about the aesthetics?

As my nursery has matured and I have gotten older, the need for starting plants has dramatically reduced. I have phased out the use of colanders except for specific cuttings that seem to do best in them. Examples of these are early stages of Chojubai and Prunus Mume. The colanders allow me to keep them on a bench with regulated overhead watering systems. Almost impossible to overwater and the air pruning effect creates a nice compact rootball in the early stages. My larger trees are just that now, passing through to older and larger containers.

I do have some better quality pond baskets purchased that I have used for over ten years. They are " Laguna" brand manufactured by Rolf C Hagen out of Montreal. There use is becoming less frequent as trees get larger as well. Although the smaller pond baskets and some colanders will likely come back into service for the JWP cuttings that will be moving outside this spring when the risk of frost passes.

The other better quality " plastic" containers I use a lot of are the Anderson Flats. I prefer the newer deep propagation or " Flat 5 " model as it is stiffer and a better size than the other Anderson Flats. At least for the species I use them with. JBP,JRP, Trident, Zelkova, Japanese maple and collected native trees. Mountain Hemlock, Shore Pine, Sub Alpine Fir, and Alaskan Yellow Cedar. Once again they are used for certain stages of development.

 

[bonhe]

Can you give some examples of species that you’d avoid planting in the ground?

Pines, cork oak, cork elm,
Thụ Thoại

 

[BigAbs321]

Pines, cork oak, cork elm,
Thụ Thoại

Thank you!

 

[jeremy_norbury]

You guys have cool bonsai nurserys in the Netherlands?

We have huge importers...the biggest in Europe. They are then sold on to all of Europe.

 

[Shibui]

Pines, cork oak, cork elm,
Thụ Thoại

I grow JBP in the ground and get great results. Also see the frequent photos of JBP posted by @Adair M
Cork elm can refer to a number of species. Corky bark Chinese elm is also no problem grown in the ground and can post some photos if you want to see.

 

[Clicio]

Corky bark Chinese elm is also no problem grown in the ground and can post some photos if you want to see.

Thanks.
Please do so, I would like to see those pictures alright.

 

[bonhe]

I grow JBP in the ground and get great results. Also see the frequent photos of JBP posted by @Adair M
Cork elm can refer to a number of species. Corky bark Chinese elm is also no problem grown in the ground and can post some photos if you want to see.

Oh yeah. Could you please show me the pictures of the barks, the trunks and the whole trees together? I like to see them. Thanks.
Thụ Thoại

 

[bonhe]

Thank you!

you are very welcome
Thụ Thoại

 

[dbonsaiw]

Trying to parse the various opinions into the appropriate contexts in which they were presented. Assuming that ground growing is not an option, but one is not necessarily limited by space, is there a consensus on how to get a young bonsai started? Not so totally hypothetical, a newbie orders some starter trees online from Valavanis and can't plant in the ground. The goal is to start developing good nebari even at the expense of above ground growth. Should the tree be left in the container it comes in for now? Should it be re-planted in a small container (bonsai soil) in an attempt to encourage feeder root growth and up-potted as the years go by? Plant in a large box to allow the roots to run and they will ramify by themselves in the bonsai soil? I was simply going to build 10X10X3.5" grow boxes, but after reading through this thread, I'm not sure if it isn't a better idea to start with a smaller pot.

 

[dbonsaiw]

I opted for these - 15X12X3" propagation trays.

 

[DrTolhur]

I opted for these - 15X12X3" propagation trays.

Where did you get those from/what brand are they?